Hiro11

My reactions to this:

1. Trump ought to be thrown out of office for his handling of this. When you have Steve Bannon on your staff and have dog whistled white supremacists in the past, Charlottesville was not the time for equivocation or moral equivalence. Condemn the Tiki douchebags and leave it at that. He had an opportunity to make a stand and blew it in the worst possible way. It's political suicide for him, deservedly so.

2. Yes, people waving Swastika flags is upsetting and yes, it needs to be condemned in the strongest possible terms. On the other hand, let's not get carried away thinking American race relations can be boiled down to Nazis vs BLM or that either side represents a majority view. There's a lot of immature, oversimplified posturing on all sides with the media happily fanning the flames.

3. Personally, I draw the line a Nazi rallies when it comes to free speech. If you feel you have the right to walk around with a Swastika (or some other symbol that means the same thing), I feel I have the right to punch you in the face. I'm all for pushing back against the tide of "political correctness" as people should be free to voice opinions, but racist Facism is beyond the pale. It's simply unacceptable.

Lion in Winter

Agree with almost all of this.

Except that if Trump is thrown out we get Pence - just as nasty, but less insane and therefore likely to be more effective and more worrying.

dc koop

I know this may sound ridiculous and somewhat naïve but if a person wished to walk around with a swastika pinned on his jacket or another person wished to wear the Star of David or a black person wanted to wear a Tee shirt with "Black Power and down with Honkies" written on it, in the true sense of democracy they should not have to walk in fear of being beaten up. We have a long, long way to go to reach a real stage of democracy and tolerance. Right now we're only a democracy of bits and pieces.

dc koop

Pulling down statues doesn't wipe out history. The stain of slavery and injustice will always remain a part of the southern legacy. Anyway this is cruelty to pigeons. Where else will they be able to take a decent crap from now on

kimilseung

This is true, but is also completely irrelevant, it ignores what public art of this kind is for, what it represents, and what it is intended to convey, what it says today.

dc koop

Would a white Nazi have the right to punch you in the face if you wore "LGBT and proud of it" tee shirt. To his way of thinking LGBT is unacceptable also. What needs to happen is that we need to grow up and start acting like mature citizens. I used to attend public speaking sessions in Britain given by people of all beliefs, Fascists, Communists, Anarchists you name it. There were boos, loud hectoring, ridicule but never physical violence.

As for Trump he could only be removed if he violated the laws of the Constitution or committed an unlawful act in some way. Obnoxiousness does not come under violation of constitution or breaking the law.

dc koop

Should statues of Queen Victoria be removed? After all she was head of an Empire that while it was in the main probably the fairest and most just of all European Empires still had it's periods of exploitation, injustice and cruelty.

Where will it all end? I'll have to pay attention to BBC News to see if the pulling down statues craze starts to catch on over there

Giantaxe

I suggest you go and look at the graph I posted in this thread of when the vast majority of these statues were erected and have a think about why that was the case.

Leslie

That's all very sweet but ...

In America, the Nazis, KKK, Aryan Brotherhood, et al. Have already made it quite clear that they believe that they indeed do have the right to not only face-punch but to actually kill anybody they don't like. They've also announced their plans to move forward with the violent overthrow of this society as well as the extermination of all non-whites living in the US. They have a centuries long, well documented, history of violence. The number of violent racial hate crimes are up 6% this year.

There's really no need to protect their rights ... they seem to have it all worked out without your help.

Are you okay with ISIS converts holding rallies and brandishing weapons on the streets of the US? Do you defend their right to free speech?

Leslie

The fact that he equates a LGBT person with a Nazi tells me that 'thinking' isn't actually something he's interested in doing.

dc koop

If people in a country like America either feel threatened or take seriously the rubbish these [people spout then this to me indicates a very marked sense of naivety and immaturity in the mind set of some of the population. I wasn't born here or grew up here but I've lived here long enough to know that the laws of the land, the guarantees of the Constitution and the sense of justice and fairness amongst the great majority of the population would never make it possible for this bunch of clowns to carry out their agenda. They should be laughed off the streets, ridiculed for what they are. Attacking them only makes them martyrs to any who feel some empathy towards them and possibly a tool future recruitment.

As for using physical violence the laws are already in place for dealing with that kind of behavior and the right of the victim to sue for damages. The White Arian Resistance which had property and land in Idaho was sued out of existence by a black lady who had been one of their victims. She got the property, the land and the monetary resources as payment.

I wouldn't have a problem with ISIS parading in the streets even with firearms but the firing mechanisms would be disabled and absolutely no live ammo allowed under pain of 15 years in prison if caught.

It seems that looking at all of this that the Charlottesville Police department can take a fair share of blame for what happened. The protesters were given a permit, the police should have been out in force with the help of the State Troopers, barricades in place and strict enforcement in keeping the two factions apart. All it does seem is that they were largely unprepared and half measure, if even that put in place.

dc koop

I'm not against pulling them down. I just see it as a bit silly. As I mentioned before you cant wipe a bad record clean by removing a symbol. The sad history of Charlottesville and other slave cities of the south will always remain a part of their history anyway statues or no statues.

dc koop

It's the thinking of the people who feel compelled to punch someone out whether Nazi or LGBT that's the issue here

Giantaxe

Did you actually do what I suggested before posting that? Why do you think the vast majority of statues weren't erected in the immediate aftermath of the civil war?

Leslie

According to you, there are laws that will take care of him if he does punch a Nazi so it's really nothing for you to worry about.

That's the way you're telling us to look at the Nazi situation. No big deal right?