It's all kicking off in Charlottesville, VA.
Aug 15th 2017, 9:17 am
#16
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Posts: 2
Re: It's all kicking off in Charlottesville, VA.
To clarify the Flag you tend to think of now is a variant of the Battle Flag which was used significantly, but as Leslie mentioned it was not the National Flag.
Aug 15th 2017, 10:04 am
#17
Still alive
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 28,994
Re: It's all kicking off in Charlottesville, VA.
I think that we should understand the historical context of the statue itself.
This isn't some old nice historical statue that's just been there forever. This was a statue that was commissioned almost 60 years after the South lost the Civil War. Commissioned by powerful people who were still very pissed off about the end of slavery and in denial about the fact that (1) they lost the Civil War and (2) black people were on the trajectory to gaining an equal place in society. I would liken this to Germans erecting statues of Hitler and Himmler, in places of prominence and importance, in the year 2005. Or Americans erecting statues of King George III in the 1830s. Robert E. Lee was a man who led a treasonous insurrection against the government of the United States. If the outcome of the war had been different then many other things would have went differently ... but that's not the way it worked out.
The time that this statue was installed was during the rise of the KKK (Second Klan) and statues like this were installed intentionally to intimidate black people, as well as whites, who were attempting to push forward the notion of equality, and basic decent treatment, of all citizens. Also, during this phase, the movie The Birth of a Nation was mainstream and was enjoyed by, then president, Woodrow Wilson in the White House.
That old culture in Virginia was what allowed for the statue to be erected in the first place. This was a culture of lynchings, voter intimidation, church burnings and general hatred towards blacks by many people in positions of power. That culture has now changed and the statue no longer represents the culture of the Charlottesville. The city itself is behind the decision to move the statue. The city itself has decided the statue no longer represents the culture of Charlottesville. The people who were protesting the removal were not from Charlottesville. They are hate groups who, in all frankness, have no city of their own. They have no home, they are welcome nowhere. Their city is the internet. That's where they live and breath and breed. They should have no say whatsoever in what goes on in the city of Charlottesville. There may be some people, who actually live in Charlottesville, who disagree with the moving of the statue --- they can protest legally or petition their local government. If the local people against the moving of the statue were in the majority, they could stop it legally. However, the majority of those protesters were the thugs, drug dealers, felons and pimps that comprise the alt-right.
This isn't some old nice historical statue that's just been there forever. This was a statue that was commissioned almost 60 years after the South lost the Civil War. Commissioned by powerful people who were still very pissed off about the end of slavery and in denial about the fact that (1) they lost the Civil War and (2) black people were on the trajectory to gaining an equal place in society. I would liken this to Germans erecting statues of Hitler and Himmler, in places of prominence and importance, in the year 2005. Or Americans erecting statues of King George III in the 1830s. Robert E. Lee was a man who led a treasonous insurrection against the government of the United States. If the outcome of the war had been different then many other things would have went differently ... but that's not the way it worked out.
The time that this statue was installed was during the rise of the KKK (Second Klan) and statues like this were installed intentionally to intimidate black people, as well as whites, who were attempting to push forward the notion of equality, and basic decent treatment, of all citizens. Also, during this phase, the movie The Birth of a Nation was mainstream and was enjoyed by, then president, Woodrow Wilson in the White House.
That old culture in Virginia was what allowed for the statue to be erected in the first place. This was a culture of lynchings, voter intimidation, church burnings and general hatred towards blacks by many people in positions of power. That culture has now changed and the statue no longer represents the culture of the Charlottesville. The city itself is behind the decision to move the statue. The city itself has decided the statue no longer represents the culture of Charlottesville. The people who were protesting the removal were not from Charlottesville. They are hate groups who, in all frankness, have no city of their own. They have no home, they are welcome nowhere. Their city is the internet. That's where they live and breath and breed. They should have no say whatsoever in what goes on in the city of Charlottesville. There may be some people, who actually live in Charlottesville, who disagree with the moving of the statue --- they can protest legally or petition their local government. If the local people against the moving of the statue were in the majority, they could stop it legally. However, the majority of those protesters were the thugs, drug dealers, felons and pimps that comprise the alt-right.
Thanks for the historical context; I did not know that at all and I'm glad you provided it. Based on this context, it makes a whole lot of sense to remove the statue. I had, naively, assumed the statue was erected right after the war to commemorate a 'local hero'.
This goes to my bigger point on all this - there is a general lack of understanding in the population as a whole regarding the civil rights movement, and these events NEED to get national attention to act as an educational tool. That's why I think it's good that the media has focused on these unfortunate events.
This goes to my bigger point on all this - there is a general lack of understanding in the population as a whole regarding the civil rights movement, and these events NEED to get national attention to act as an educational tool. That's why I think it's good that the media has focused on these unfortunate events.
People take the pee out of Americans for not knowing about the history or geography of other countries, but in reality, how many non-Americans can name more than a few states, or know about the country's history?
Aug 15th 2017, 10:54 am
#18
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: East Seaxe
Posts: 72,531
Re: It's all kicking off in Charlottesville, VA.
I think that we should understand the historical context of the statue itself.
This isn't some old nice historical statue that's just been there forever. This was a statue that was commissioned almost 60 years after the South lost the Civil War. Commissioned by powerful people who were still very pissed off about the end of slavery and in denial about the fact that (1) they lost the Civil War and (2) black people were on the trajectory to gaining an equal place in society. I would liken this to Germans erecting statues of Hitler and Himmler, in places of prominence and importance, in the year 2005. Or Americans erecting statues of King George III in the 1830s. Robert E. Lee was a man who led a treasonous insurrection against the government of the United States. If the outcome of the war had been different then many other things would have went differently ... but that's not the way it worked out.
The time that this statue was installed was during the rise of the KKK (Second Klan) and statues like this were installed intentionally to intimidate black people, as well as whites, who were attempting to push forward the notion of equality, and basic decent treatment, of all citizens. Also, during this phase, the movie The Birth of a Nation was mainstream and was enjoyed by, then president, Woodrow Wilson in the White House.
That old culture in Virginia was what allowed for the statue to be erected in the first place. This was a culture of lynchings, voter intimidation, church burnings and general hatred towards blacks by many people in positions of power. That culture has now changed and the statue no longer represents the culture of the Charlottesville. The city itself is behind the decision to move the statue. The city itself has decided the statue no longer represents the culture of Charlottesville. The people who were protesting the removal were not from Charlottesville. They are hate groups who, in all frankness, have no city of their own. They have no home, they are welcome nowhere. Their city is the internet. That's where they live and breath and breed. They should have no say whatsoever in what goes on in the city of Charlottesville. There may be some people, who actually live in Charlottesville, who disagree with the moving of the statue --- they can protest legally or petition their local government. If the local people against the moving of the statue were in the majority, they could stop it legally. However, the majority of those protesters were the thugs, drug dealers, felons and pimps that comprise the alt-right.
This isn't some old nice historical statue that's just been there forever. This was a statue that was commissioned almost 60 years after the South lost the Civil War. Commissioned by powerful people who were still very pissed off about the end of slavery and in denial about the fact that (1) they lost the Civil War and (2) black people were on the trajectory to gaining an equal place in society. I would liken this to Germans erecting statues of Hitler and Himmler, in places of prominence and importance, in the year 2005. Or Americans erecting statues of King George III in the 1830s. Robert E. Lee was a man who led a treasonous insurrection against the government of the United States. If the outcome of the war had been different then many other things would have went differently ... but that's not the way it worked out.
The time that this statue was installed was during the rise of the KKK (Second Klan) and statues like this were installed intentionally to intimidate black people, as well as whites, who were attempting to push forward the notion of equality, and basic decent treatment, of all citizens. Also, during this phase, the movie The Birth of a Nation was mainstream and was enjoyed by, then president, Woodrow Wilson in the White House.
That old culture in Virginia was what allowed for the statue to be erected in the first place. This was a culture of lynchings, voter intimidation, church burnings and general hatred towards blacks by many people in positions of power. That culture has now changed and the statue no longer represents the culture of the Charlottesville. The city itself is behind the decision to move the statue. The city itself has decided the statue no longer represents the culture of Charlottesville. The people who were protesting the removal were not from Charlottesville. They are hate groups who, in all frankness, have no city of their own. They have no home, they are welcome nowhere. Their city is the internet. That's where they live and breath and breed. They should have no say whatsoever in what goes on in the city of Charlottesville. There may be some people, who actually live in Charlottesville, who disagree with the moving of the statue --- they can protest legally or petition their local government. If the local people against the moving of the statue were in the majority, they could stop it legally. However, the majority of those protesters were the thugs, drug dealers, felons and pimps that comprise the alt-right.
Aug 15th 2017, 11:09 am
#19
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Location: Rural Virginia
Posts: 1,076
Re: It's all kicking off in Charlottesville, VA.
The racism continued for a long time after the end of the civil war. Following the Brown v Board of Education some counties opted to close the schools rather than integrate them.
From 1959 to 1964 the white children were educated in private schools, the black children had no schools.
In other school districts that did integrate some teachers resigned rather that teach black children.
The park where the statue is located was originally named Lee Park and was white only.
Charlottesville is very liberal as compared to the rest of Southern Virginia.
From 1959 to 1964 the white children were educated in private schools, the black children had no schools.
In other school districts that did integrate some teachers resigned rather that teach black children.
The park where the statue is located was originally named Lee Park and was white only.
Charlottesville is very liberal as compared to the rest of Southern Virginia.
Last edited by ottotheboar; Aug 15th 2017 at 12:23 pm.
Aug 15th 2017, 12:12 pm
#20
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: East Seaxe
Posts: 72,531
Re: It's all kicking off in Charlottesville, VA.
Not everyone thinks the same as the tiki torch racists, thankfully.
Confederate statue pulled down in North Carolina - BBC News
Confederate statue pulled down in North Carolina - BBC News
Aug 15th 2017, 12:40 pm
#21
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2
Re: It's all kicking off in Charlottesville, VA.
I think that there's a general lack of understanding of American history outside America. We did learn a lot of American history in school (in Canada) there's still a lot that's not generally known outside the US.
People take the pee out of Americans for not knowing about the history or geography of other countries, but in reality, how many non-Americans can name more than a few states, or know about the country's history?
Aug 15th 2017, 2:39 pm
#22
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: East Seaxe
Posts: 72,531
Re: It's all kicking off in Charlottesville, VA.
This
US 1940s anti-Nazi film makes comeback - BBC News
And this
Charlottesville death: Marianne Rubin, 89, joins protests - BBC News
Watch the videos.
US 1940s anti-Nazi film makes comeback - BBC News
And this
Charlottesville death: Marianne Rubin, 89, joins protests - BBC News
Watch the videos.
Aug 15th 2017, 3:38 pm
#23
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jan 2006
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 12,865
Re: It's all kicking off in Charlottesville, VA.
This isn't some old nice historical statue that's just been there forever. This was a statue that was commissioned almost 60 years after the South lost the Civil War. Commissioned by powerful people who were still very pissed off about the end of slavery and in denial about the fact that (1) they lost the Civil War and (2) black people were on the trajectory to gaining an equal place in society.
Aug 15th 2017, 4:28 pm
#24
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Re: It's all kicking off in Charlottesville, VA.
It was the little known facts well to me at least that slaves were buried wherever was convenient in unmarked graves I found surprising.
Aug 15th 2017, 4:44 pm
#25
WTF?
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Homeostasis
Posts: 79,367
Re: It's all kicking off in Charlottesville, VA.
The vast majority of these Confederate statues were erected during the Jim Crow and Civil Rights eras, not in the immediate aftermath of the Civil War:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHOxhm2WAAEkKLZ.jpg:large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHOxhm2WAAEkKLZ.jpg:large
Aug 15th 2017, 4:49 pm
#26
WTF?
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Homeostasis
Posts: 79,367
Re: It's all kicking off in Charlottesville, VA.
These practices were used intentionally to further objectify slaves. No funerals, no weddings, can't keep your own children. Debase and dehumanize them to the point that they don't even realize they're fully human. Then point at them and say, "Look at them, they're animals. There's no way they can live without our domination." Lovely.
Aug 15th 2017, 9:04 pm
#27
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Re: It's all kicking off in Charlottesville, VA.
1. The first amendment (and the rest of the constitution) restricts what the government can do, it does not limit the rights of private businesses. There are other federal laws for that.
2. Speech isn't 100% free, there are recognised limits, including inciting violence.
3. The right wing are in favour of business rights not to do business with people that they don't want, so it would be hypocritical of them to complain about this especially when it doesn't even involve a protected class.
2. Speech isn't 100% free, there are recognised limits, including inciting violence.
3. The right wing are in favour of business rights not to do business with people that they don't want, so it would be hypocritical of them to complain about this especially when it doesn't even involve a protected class.
Aug 15th 2017, 9:14 pm
#28
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Joined: Jul 2007
Location: North Norfolk and northern New York State
Posts: 14,540
Re: It's all kicking off in Charlottesville, VA.
I think it is wrong for Google and GoDaddy to de-list their domain registration.
Free speech/the 1st Amendment isn't about people who echo your beliefs.
It's to protect the speech that is abhorrent to you.
The ACLU gets that and has fought for these people to be allowed to have their protests. We don't want to go down the road of politically incorrect speech being criminalized, like in the UK.
In the same vein, I hope people keep an eye on this. DOJ requesting 1.3 million IP addresses from visitors to a Trump protest/"resistance" website.
Justice demands 1.3M IP addresses related to Trump resistance site | TheHill
Free speech/the 1st Amendment isn't about people who echo your beliefs.
It's to protect the speech that is abhorrent to you.
The ACLU gets that and has fought for these people to be allowed to have their protests. We don't want to go down the road of politically incorrect speech being criminalized, like in the UK.
In the same vein, I hope people keep an eye on this. DOJ requesting 1.3 million IP addresses from visitors to a Trump protest/"resistance" website.
Justice demands 1.3M IP addresses related to Trump resistance site | TheHill
Aug 15th 2017, 9:46 pm
#29
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Location: North Norfolk and northern New York State
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Re: It's all kicking off in Charlottesville, VA.
Ok fine. But it's not criminalised, is it. Hate speech is criminalised. So what is the point you were trying to make?
Aug 15th 2017, 10:10 pm
#30
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Joined: Jul 2007
Location: North Norfolk and northern New York State
Posts: 14,540
Re: It's all kicking off in Charlottesville, VA.
What, choking on your own words, Octang? Come on man, spit it out.