Florida shooting
#661
I have a comma problem
Joined: Feb 2009
Location: Fox Lake, IL (from Carrickfergus NI)
Posts: 49,598
Re: Florida shooting
Well, I posted before - way back - what do you propose?
Just some ideas:
1. Ban semi-auto rifles? Remember, less than 300 people are killed by rifles.
2. Ban handguns? Most deaths are due to handguns.
3. Limit magazine sizes.
4. Tax ammunition.
5. Increase age to 21.
6. Insurance.
7. Buy-backs, followed by confiscation.
Just some ideas:
1. Ban semi-auto rifles? Remember, less than 300 people are killed by rifles.
2. Ban handguns? Most deaths are due to handguns.
3. Limit magazine sizes.
4. Tax ammunition.
5. Increase age to 21.
6. Insurance.
7. Buy-backs, followed by confiscation.
4. Is ammunition exempt from sales tax? I don't think levying some random tax like they do with fags would have any effect though, so no.
5. Not necessarily, but I think it's a bit hypocritical that someone can buy a gun at 18 but they can't buy a drink. Consistency would be nice here.
6. I'm down with that, actually.
7. Can be dismissed with points 1-3, I'm not saying this should happen at all.
A while back I mentioned Japan's approach, and I would like to see (emphasis on that phrase, I'm not saying this is the answer) something along those lines, without the restriction on the type of guns that can be bought.
So, a written exam, proficiency test with a high passing score, psych evaluations and a limit in the number of gun shops operating in a given area would be a great start. Some kind of liability insurance as well would make sense, especially if tied into a register for all guns where if a person's gun is stolen or otherwise used in a crime by someone else, they are in some way liable for it and will incur a punishment of some variety, likely fines, up to and including forfeiting their right to ownership if the crime is severe enough.
Just out of interest, whenever the terms "common-sense"/"reasonable" are used, this pops to mind as a counter argument you sometimes see:
The cake meme.
The cake | Gun Control Debate | Know Your Meme
The cake meme.
The cake | Gun Control Debate | Know Your Meme
I've already pointed that out. I'm mostly apathetic when it comes to gun ownership. I don't buy into the myths that they make you safe, but I'm happy enough for people to have them as long as we have a well thought out legal framework to manage that ownership.
'Middle ground' isn't something I can really define, nor is it something I should have to either, since I'm not a lawmaker. If, however, the net end result is that all gun owners
Gun ownership two centuries ago was not so common. Guns were expensive and unreliable, with high odds that the gun would harm who was using it.
Guns become more common in the 20th century when they could be mass produced. It's actually a fairly recent phenomenon.
That, and the Supreme Court interpreted the Second Amendment as a militia rights amendment without any self-defense rights attached to it until the Heller case. So even that view is quite recent, i.e. something that emerged as a legal doctrine only after you relocated here.
Guns become more common in the 20th century when they could be mass produced. It's actually a fairly recent phenomenon.
That, and the Supreme Court interpreted the Second Amendment as a militia rights amendment without any self-defense rights attached to it until the Heller case. So even that view is quite recent, i.e. something that emerged as a legal doctrine only after you relocated here.
#662
Re: Florida shooting
It should be no surprise that libertarians are pro gun as they are from a social group that has enough stuff to, in part, separate itself from social and economic interaction, other than in the limited spectrum of what it considers acceptable, and this stuff that they have, needs protecting. But It's still odd how the ideology of libertarianism leads to such a paranoid, insular and self created prison of isolationism.
#663
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Nov 2011
Location: Somewhere between Vancouver & St Johns
Posts: 19,846
#664
Bloody Yank
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: USA! USA!
Posts: 4,186
Re: Florida shooting
It should be no surprise that libertarians are pro gun as they are from a social group that has enough stuff to, in part, separate itself from social and economic interaction, other than in the limited spectrum of what it considers acceptable, and this stuff that they have, needs protecting. But It's still odd how the ideology of libertarianism leads to such a paranoid, insular and self created prison of isolationism.
It can be summarized as follows: "I take pride in the fact that I don't give a f**k about what happens to you."
#665
Re: Florida shooting
An eloquent summary of Ayn Rand's objectivist libertarian principles. Go to the top of the class!
#666
Peace onion
Joined: Jul 2006
Location: Denver
Posts: 5,686
Re: Florida shooting
Sultan,
I don't agree with limiting gun shops in a certain area. Government shouldn't/couldn't do that. The market dictates the number.
So, I'm on board with your more rigorous background checks. That helps going forward. But what about the 94 million gun owners out there and their hundreds of millions of firearms? Could you retroactively test them? It's quite a task.
I don't agree with limiting gun shops in a certain area. Government shouldn't/couldn't do that. The market dictates the number.
So, I'm on board with your more rigorous background checks. That helps going forward. But what about the 94 million gun owners out there and their hundreds of millions of firearms? Could you retroactively test them? It's quite a task.
#668
Bloody Yank
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: USA! USA!
Posts: 4,186
Re: Florida shooting
American political science -
Establishment conservative: "I don't give a f**k about what happens to you."
Libertarian: "I take pride in the fact that I don't give a f**k about what happens to you."
Social conservative: "I don't give a f**k about what happens to you because Jesus told me not to."
Compassionate conservative: "I do give a f**k about what happens to you. Which is why I'm going to make you believe in Jesus."
Neo-conservative: "I do give a f**k about what happens to you. Which is why I'm going to invade your country."
Establishment conservative: "I don't give a f**k about what happens to you."
Libertarian: "I take pride in the fact that I don't give a f**k about what happens to you."
Social conservative: "I don't give a f**k about what happens to you because Jesus told me not to."
Compassionate conservative: "I do give a f**k about what happens to you. Which is why I'm going to make you believe in Jesus."
Neo-conservative: "I do give a f**k about what happens to you. Which is why I'm going to invade your country."
#669
I have a comma problem
Joined: Feb 2009
Location: Fox Lake, IL (from Carrickfergus NI)
Posts: 49,598
Re: Florida shooting
Bottom line is, if the end result is people get to still have guns, something like limiting the number of places to buy them shouldn't be an issue.
How many of those aren't already registered though and aren't all gun owners licensed? It would be more a case of tightening up regulations and making sure existing gun owners are compliant. Refuse to comply - get a fine and possibly face jail time. Nobody said owning a gun had to be easy. Again, if they get to keep their guns, it's not like there's a net negative for them, just a minor pain in the arse.
#670
Peace onion
Joined: Jul 2006
Location: Denver
Posts: 5,686
Re: Florida shooting
I don't think gun store saturation is a problem.
Unless you live in a place like New Joisey, or D.C., virtually none of them are registered.
And no - gun owners are not licensed. You typically need a license for concealed carry permits.
That's what I'm saying. The toothpaste is out of the tube.
Making it a pain in the arse is basically what California and New Jersey are trying to do. Make it so onerous and expensive.
Unless you live in a place like New Joisey, or D.C., virtually none of them are registered.
And no - gun owners are not licensed. You typically need a license for concealed carry permits.
That's what I'm saying. The toothpaste is out of the tube.
Making it a pain in the arse is basically what California and New Jersey are trying to do. Make it so onerous and expensive.
Last edited by Octang Frye; Feb 21st 2018 at 10:29 pm.
#671
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 14,577
Re: Florida shooting
Gun ownership two centuries ago was not so common. Guns were expensive and unreliable, with high odds that the gun would harm who was using it.
Guns become more common in the 20th century when they could be mass produced. It's actually a fairly recent phenomenon.
That, and the Supreme Court interpreted the Second Amendment as a militia rights amendment without any self-defense rights attached to it until the Heller case. So even that view is quite recent, i.e. something that emerged as a legal doctrine only after you relocated here.
Guns become more common in the 20th century when they could be mass produced. It's actually a fairly recent phenomenon.
That, and the Supreme Court interpreted the Second Amendment as a militia rights amendment without any self-defense rights attached to it until the Heller case. So even that view is quite recent, i.e. something that emerged as a legal doctrine only after you relocated here.
#672
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Jul 2015
Location: Panama City, FL
Posts: 2,054
Re: Florida shooting
I bought my first gun in Alabama several years ago. Went through the background check but nothing more. I applied and obtained a concealed carry permit a couple of years later. They MAY have done another background check. It took about a week to get the permit in the mail.
When we moved to Florida, I had to do a firearm safety course before obtaining a carry permit. You could class the CCW as a license but no license is required to buy and own a gun.
ETA: I bought my first gun while still on a non-immigrant visa.
Last edited by chawkins99; Feb 22nd 2018 at 1:05 am.
#673
Account Closed
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2
Re: Florida shooting
I was a LPR, I passed my Concealed Carry, it was a pass or fail, I did get 100% in my Hunter's Ed, 19 out of 20 at the DMV but had not studied and did not realise I was actually going to be tested at that time.
Not quite sure what this has to do with the issue.
The problem is with nutters, nobody has suggested they are stupid nutters.
Pretty sure CCP in my State can not be centrally accessed.
You need to pass a background check but that seems to be a fresh one every time, CCP gives you no advantage, not sure it is an acceptable ID.
Not quite sure what this has to do with the issue.
The problem is with nutters, nobody has suggested they are stupid nutters.
Pretty sure CCP in my State can not be centrally accessed.
You need to pass a background check but that seems to be a fresh one every time, CCP gives you no advantage, not sure it is an acceptable ID.
#674
Re: Florida shooting
Oh boy... How many hundreds of millions of guns in the country? Gun owners are the problem? If we were really the problem there'd be blood on the streets every day.
Gun violence down in America.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.2ed33a79e830
Gun violence down in America.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.2ed33a79e830
And quibbling about which kind of gun does what is really immaterial in this situation.
#675
Re: Florida shooting
Who are you and what have you done with Sultan of Swing?
Ultimately, the only way to prevent this to take the firearms out of circulation.
It's pointless to ban a firearm based on cosmetics alone. Remember Columbine happened during the "Assault Weapons" Ban of the Clinton Era.
The gun show loophole is a myth. All the restrictions imposed won't do anything.
The only solution is, to quote whatsherface, "Mr and Mrs America, hand 'em all in."
The antis just need to figure out how to make that happen.
Ultimately, the only way to prevent this to take the firearms out of circulation.
It's pointless to ban a firearm based on cosmetics alone. Remember Columbine happened during the "Assault Weapons" Ban of the Clinton Era.
The gun show loophole is a myth. All the restrictions imposed won't do anything.
The only solution is, to quote whatsherface, "Mr and Mrs America, hand 'em all in."
The antis just need to figure out how to make that happen.
I have had a loaded gun pointed at me in my own house by a very-much-former relative (and no, I have no idea what sort of gun it was) because he thought it was impressive and intimidating, I have hopped behind a tree outside in the street because two teenagers started shooting at each other, I was in a hardware store when it was held up at gunpoint, and two former classmates of my high-school-age son have just been arrested for shooting and killing another young man. 18 years old and now done.
There is no way to rationalize not taking action.