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Charlie Hebdo shooting in France

Charlie Hebdo shooting in France

Old Jan 7th 2015, 6:50 pm
  #31  
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Default Re: Charlie Hebdo shooting in France

Originally Posted by hoffage123
This is what I mean - yes there are certain hardline mosques as there are certain hardline churches or other groups. With reference to condemnation of the acts, I have read plenty of condemnation today online from faith representatives like Tariq Ramadan (UK), Ismael Menk (UAE)and others - there was a whole social media campaign recently #notinmyname that reflected mainstream Muslim opinion against extremism. It is there but it isn't trendy enough for widespread awareness. There is a rubric that Muslims=bad and against everyone, which isn't true.
There is no doubt in anyone's mid that the Saudis were supporting the Sunni insurgency in Iraq and the bad guys insurgency in Syria. Then ISIS took over control and the Saudis built a 600 mile fence between Iraq and Saudi Arabia to protect the Kingdom and recently a border post was attacked and several Saudi military were killed by ISIS supporters.

Countries that play with fire often get burned.
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Old Jan 7th 2015, 6:50 pm
  #32  
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Default Re: Charlie Hebdo shooting in France

How much do you know of the Muslim community? Even in the FBI report where they planted agents acting as extremists to try to catch them - ended up that the Muslims reported the agents in all but a couple of cases where they seemed to radicalise a few teenage boys instead.

It doesn't matter if Muslim groups speak out against terrorism in the US, no one reports it in the media and that makes everyone think they condone it.
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Old Jan 7th 2015, 6:51 pm
  #33  
 
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Default Re: Charlie Hebdo shooting in France

Originally Posted by Hotscot
Any 'religion' in which females are inherently second class with less rights than males is absolutely bad.

In my opinion.

(And that's not just Islam.)

(Actually I think all religion is bad anyway. It's time humanity moved on from believing that the supernatural is an active influence in life. In my opinion.)
Not bad... Post of the year and it's only January 7th.
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Old Jan 7th 2015, 6:51 pm
  #34  
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Default Re: Charlie Hebdo shooting in France

Originally Posted by Pulaski
You have misread or misconstrued what I wrote. "Christian" terrorists are almost universally ostracized by the Christian community. The same is not true of the muslim community, and the "notinmyname" campaign was notable exactly because it was so unusual and such a small minority of the billion muslims around the world. ..... And you apparently have no counter to my observation about the Pope, Arch Bishop of Canterbury etc. vs the Mad Mullahs of Iran, ...... because there is no counter, it's every bit as bad as it looks: chalk v cheese.
I didn't intend to miscontrue, I just wanted to respond. I can't counter because I don't agree with the Mad Mullahs or hardliners - they live in Iran and again are not representative of Iran or all 6 billion Muslims in the world, just their own personal autocratic views - the problem is that Islam has evolved over the years within different societies, so you will see differences in approach and power grabs amongst charismatic but otherwise nutty people have always been common (remember the 1940's?). I just see the vast majority of normal Muslim folks who go on with their lives, and attempt to make positive changes in their community and others. For example in Rochester there is a food shelter set up by some Muslims that attempts to feed all sections of the Rochester community every 1st and 3rd Saturday of the month. They also provide outreach and referral to social services to try and better those who can't help themselves. The mosque itself works with the Catholic alliance to foster understanding and collaboration.

I just think that generalising an entire faith isn't helpful and plays into the hands of the disturbed individuals who go out and commit atrocities. My comment was more to show the other side of the coin, that is often forgotten when such awful things happen.

Last edited by hoffage123; Jan 7th 2015 at 6:54 pm.
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Old Jan 7th 2015, 6:59 pm
  #35  
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Default Re: Charlie Hebdo shooting in France

Originally Posted by Pulaski
I agree with some of your sentiment, but you (and Novocastrian) are still oblivious as to how tough it is going to be to deal with this situation that has been brewing for many decades. ..... And saying that the policeman was "executed" is (very small) part of the PC nonsense that led us to where we are today: he wasn't "executed", he was murdered, plain and simple!
Killing someone as a political act falls under the definition of 'execute'. They were all executed.
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Old Jan 7th 2015, 7:00 pm
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Default Re: Charlie Hebdo shooting in France

Originally Posted by Anian
How much do you know of the Muslim community? Even in the FBI report where they planted agents acting as extremists to try to catch them - ended up that the Muslims reported the agents in all but a couple of cases where they seemed to radicalise a few teenage boys instead.

It doesn't matter if Muslim groups speak out against terrorism in the US, no one reports it in the media and that makes everyone think they condone it.
Agreed. +1
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Old Jan 7th 2015, 7:00 pm
  #37  
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Default Re: Charlie Hebdo shooting in France

Originally Posted by hoffage123

I just think that generalising an entire faith isn't helpful

I've pointed out the core elements of that faith are unacceptable in a civilized world, let alone the West.

Therefore = bad.
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Old Jan 7th 2015, 7:07 pm
  #38  
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Default Re: Charlie Hebdo shooting in France

Originally Posted by Hotscot
I've pointed out the core elements of that faith are unacceptable in a civilized world, let alone the West.

Therefore = bad.
I don't want to get into a theological discussion, because I am honestly not an expert or anything - but aside from the media gubbins and maybe some websites, have you spoken to anyone who is Muslim and learned about the religion to clarify any misconceptions? Verses read out of context or taking incidents like the one today as indicative of an unequal faith, and also not seeing on a practical day to day basis how people who hold that faith live their values may be why you feel the way you do.

On a basic level, Islam granted the rights for Women to work, and vote, and own their own inheritance many hundreds of years before Western civilisation did. There is a problem today with certain people who call themselves scholars redefining things within an extreme framework, which I do acknowledge.


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Old Jan 7th 2015, 7:08 pm
  #39  
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Default Re: Charlie Hebdo shooting in France

Originally Posted by Pulaski
I agree with some of your sentiment, but you (and Novocastrian) are still oblivious as to how tough it is going to be to deal with this situation that has been brewing for many decades.
I am not sure what dealing with this situation looks like.

Reasonably certain things will get worse, much worse.
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Old Jan 7th 2015, 7:09 pm
  #40  
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Default Re: Charlie Hebdo shooting in France

Originally Posted by Michael
There is no doubt in anyone's mid that the Saudis were supporting the Sunni insurgency in Iraq and the bad guys insurgency in Syria. Then ISIS took over control and the Saudis built a 600 mile fence between Iraq and Saudi Arabia to protect the Kingdom and recently a border post was attacked and several Saudi military were killed by ISIS supporters.

Countries that play with fire often get burned.
And the US government tacitly support the Saudi's in their oppressive patriarchal regime for financial and political interest - then the media get to say the Saudi's are oppressive, and then everyone generalises that to all Muslims are bad ... and so the cycle continues.

It works both ways.
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Old Jan 7th 2015, 7:10 pm
  #41  
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Default Re: Charlie Hebdo shooting in France

Originally Posted by Anian
How much do you know of the Muslim community? Even in the FBI report where they planted agents acting as extremists to try to catch them - ended up that the Muslims reported the agents in all but a couple of cases where they seemed to radicalise a few teenage boys instead.

It doesn't matter if Muslim groups speak out against terrorism in the US, no one reports it in the media and that makes everyone think they condone it.


In France, the muslim leaders have all spoken out against this atrocity. There are 5ish million muslims living in France just trying to do what the rest of us are doing: get jobs; raise kids; be healthy.. They are discriminated against daily and people who should know better (teachers) think it's not discrimination.
The vigils tonight are taking place all over France and from what I can see, they are calm and include all religions. I think that if the people of France do not want this incident to be turned into an excuse for retaliation against normal people who just happen to be muslim then the least we can do is be respectful.

I'm turning off now, I'm sad for France tonight but I'm also sad at seeing some of the comments on this forum.
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Old Jan 7th 2015, 7:13 pm
  #42  
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Default Re: Charlie Hebdo shooting in France

Originally Posted by petitefrancaise

I'm turning off now, I'm sad for France tonight but I'm also sad at seeing some of the comments on this forum.
You started the discussion...
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Old Jan 7th 2015, 7:15 pm
  #43  
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Default Re: Charlie Hebdo shooting in France

Originally Posted by hoffage123
I don't want to get into a theological discussion, because I am honestly not an expert or anything - but aside from the media gubbins and maybe some websites, have you spoken to anyone who is Muslim and learned about the religion to clarify any misconceptions? Verses read out of context or taking incidents like the one today as indicative of an unequal faith, and also not seeing on a practical day to day basis how people who hold that faith live their values may be why you feel the way you do.

On a basic level, Islam granted the rights for Women to work, and vote, and own their own inheritance many hundreds of years before Western civilisation did. There is a problem today with certain people who call themselves scholars redefining things within an extreme framework, which I do acknowledge.


Hoffage
We had RE, common in the UK, plenty of information around. Not exactly hidden

It is a combination of religion and the societies it eminates in, you can not really divide the two.

Most of us have grown up in a post Religious society and think that is the norm, what is acceptable.

It is not.
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Old Jan 7th 2015, 7:16 pm
  #44  
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Default Re: Charlie Hebdo shooting in France

Islam does not inherently make females inferior.
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Old Jan 7th 2015, 7:17 pm
  #45  
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Default Re: Charlie Hebdo shooting in France

Originally Posted by petitefrancaise


In France, the muslim leaders have all spoken out against this atrocity. There are 5ish million muslims living in France just trying to do what the rest of us are doing: get jobs; raise kids; be healthy.. They are discriminated against daily and people who should know better (teachers) think it's not discrimination.
The vigils tonight are taking place all over France and from what I can see, they are calm and include all religions. I think that if the people of France do not want this incident to be turned into an excuse for retaliation against normal people who just happen to be muslim then the least we can do is be respectful.

I'm turning off now, I'm sad for France tonight but I'm also sad at seeing some of the comments on this forum.
Predictable on BE.
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