eddie007

OMG this takes me back to 19th Centuary British history lessons and the corn laws etc etc etc......

slapphead_otool

Interesting comparison Eddie, and one i had missed by a mile, but well worth exploring.

eddie007

Will we see landowners stretching themselves beyond "sensible", the government then withdrawing subsidies/fixed pricing then a collapse of the price of rice/land ..... Creating the kind of financial instability which will allow economic "revolution" and the introduction of Milton Friedmans disastrous policies....

As Nancy Klein said... The Shock Doctrine relies on the element of surprise and us being unaware of what is happening for success.....

Call me paranoid, or a conspiracy theorist.... But The reality is I enjoy social history... And see potential ....

slapphead_otool

I think for what I have read and been told that is already happening....

I cant see any other choice if production continues and the subsidy is higher than the market price. I guess it could be seen a a socialist spreading of wealth to poorer areas but Im not sure its even trickling down to the farmers....

wolf5370

As GMTplus7 states - there is a trade in buying from Burma and Cambodia cheaply and selling as Thai. There are several "layers" here - the farmer - the buyers - the mill - the post milled buyers - exporters/packagers - consumers. The more the price is pushed up the more likely the farmers will be supplanted by neighbouring imports. The last government was worried about this and launched investigations and attempted crackdowns on unlicensed imports of rice (this will only become more difficult as Thailand pushes further into Asean). Not sure what happened to these investigations since the Dems were booted out.

The effect is that as fixed prices to farmers is pushed, less rice will be bought from them and more illegally imported.

The other problem is that land that for a thousand years has grown a crop of rice a year is being pushed to 2, 3 or even 4 using irrigation, but also chemicals and machinery supplanting the poor planters/harvesters and buffalo. This has two effects (other than pollution) the rural planters/harvesters lose their livelihood and the earth loses its vitality (HM the King has warned about this several times). It is spending today and spoiling tomorrow - the soil will become less and less fertile (even with chemicals added) and the ricer lesser in quality. Cost to farmers increases, because of chemicals and machinery, and they lose income due to illegal imports and surplus they have to sell black market below the minimum price.

Farmers vote how they are told to by their Bahn Yai (village elder) who is paid by the politicians to vote their way - farmers can not go against the Bahn Yai as they will suddenly find themselves without workers, water, even land (much of the farmland is not deeded (Chanote) but is at most registered (nor.sor.3) this means that it is owned by the government and loaned for free to farmers for their homes and farms - and can be revoked at will!). These people can not afford to fight back - everything is stacked against them and if they do stand up, they will simply starve.

GMTplus7

apart from nor sor 3, sor por ko is another form of right on the land given by the the government around 20 years ago. The government at the time gave pieces of land to poor farmers who did not own land in the hope that they would improve and harvest their agri business. By law this right cannot be transferred nor sell to a third party, it can only be inherited within their own immediate families. Nevertheless, these sor por ko title can be exchanged for cash with the Government Agriculture Bank. It is now proven that more than 70% of this right belong to the investors, influential people, corrupt politicians, anyone who has fund but the original farmers. sor por ko is not a loan and it cannot be revoked (I believe nor sor 3 has the same rights). The farmers have full rights as to what to do with the land (agri business only) except selling it.

More and more nor sor 3 and sor por ko titles have been transferred to chanote (deed) in the past 2 decades.

wolf5370

When Thaksin was outserd (2006 I think) and the military coup took over, the ability to purchase Chanotes from lower class papers was halted (and is still only being talked about being reintroduced) - however, like you say, this did not stop it still going ahead (thanks to corrupt registrars - often local ones - and sometimes the paperwork they gave out is worthless as the Amphur over-turns them). N.S.3 can legally be sold or used for loan equity, and with accurate official measuring and 3000 baht can be turned into a Chanote as long as there is no objection (must - officially at least - have been in the family for at least a decade and used for farming or farm housing/storage only) - of course this only applies when the government opens the gates again.

Lower land registartions are not suuposed to be either used as calateral, sold or raised to N.S3 or above without special ruling (this is the caveat whereby the rich and powerful still get their mits on it!) - some requires high office signatures (such as forest/mountain/beach/national park land) - although there has been much of this going on during Thaksin's government and before too (especially in the islands and Phuket - and national parks in the south).

I have a plot of 27 rai of land (about 11 acres) awaiting Chanote (currently N.S 3 - registered to us for over 15 years) - I have even got as far a paying and the measuring being booked, but each time the amphur stops it (money is returned) due to the governemnt stoppage. Just my luck to get a uncorrupt land registrar! Been waiting 4 years now - even had to cancel a lot of 700 teak trees that were going in - won't do it on N.S.3 as I simply don't trust the local registrars.

slapphead_otool

Big karma on the teak plantation. Its good to see interest in replacing the timber being taken. From memory there are no financial incentives but you can get certification of regrown teak. Is that right? Or does Thailand offer anything?

Great comments on the thread, please keep them coming. much appreciated.

wolf5370

No incentives at all. Natural Teak logging in Thailand is illegal (for about 35 years now I think - maybe longer) - so teak is farmed instead. It takes about 25 years for a full grown tree, but they can be close planted and thinned every 7 years (so they don't overgrow each other). A full grown tree is worth a fair amount of money (about 3-400 pounds if its straight and tall with no low branches) - a sapling is a few pence.

It's a long term investment, but means that the teak trees can be kept at an average of 15-20 years of age (cycling) - this gives habitat for the birds etc that would have lived in them. Plantim Neem trees every now and then is good too - the leaves are naturally insecticidal, so as the leaves drop (they can be collected and shreaded and sown) it inhibits tree boring insects without need to spray very often - which is also good too

I wanted to do that rather than plant rubber or oil palms as these are not natural for the north, take a lot of looking after and need chemicals - they are not so bird friendly either.

The land is in the rice stomach of Thailand (i.e. central) and much land has been turned into paddy field and cassava plantations, so animals are forced to leave or live in unsuitable areas. Once past sappling stage, teak is happy to live with ground growth (bushes/thickets/etc) and other trees, and will only need to be cut back once a year (for branch lopping) - which is also healthy for it.