M and M

Hi everyone,

I'm looking for some advice on moving to Thailand and if it would be a viable option for us.

We're a European couple who moved to New Zealand a few years ago. I've got a job working for a British company, who pay me for work I do online for them. I've been doing this for the last 4 years now and have no intention of giving up such a cushy number .

Living in New Zealand and working for a British company has simply meant that I don't pay any tax in the UK, but instead pay all my tax to the New Zealand government.

If we were to move to Thailand does anyone know how this would work? Is there a visa I could get that would allow me to live there long-term? Do you have to have a job working for Thai company to get a long-term visa? Or can you get a visa extension based on my situation of working for a foreign company?

From what I've learned so far, we'd only be able to stay in Thailand for 12 months (leaving every 90 days) and then that would be it for our Thai adventure and we'd have to leave for another country.

Is that right, or am I missing something here?

Cheers

Alan2005

The business visa does that, but you'll need to renew it every year. They aren't that hard to get (or they didn't used to be), but your employer will need to do some paperwork for you.

bakedbean

Hi M and M and welcome to the forum.

Just wondering if you are old enough for the 1 year retirement visa. I think it used to be for over 50s. Quite easy to get. You could then keep same arrangement with the British company paying into New Zealand and NZ tax? I don't know if that would work, but just an idea.

wolf5370

OK,

first off you will not be able to get a work visa/work permit for working as a individual or as a foreigner working online for a foreign company. So, forget that route.

The best bet is to come here on another visa and then do your work as you always did, online, and immigration/labour dept are none ther wiser. In truth they will not carte unless you rub their noses in it (i.e. advertise in Thailand or make it publically known what you are doing) as strictly speaking it is illegal (more on that in a moment!), but they really are only after people working here illegally - i.e. taking Thai jobs (that is why being paid or not is not a consideration).

The problem here is that the legal definition of working is "to perform work whether paid or unpaid". That is, defining work by using the same word 'work'. This has always caused issues, and it has not been helped with people (in authority and not) suggesting "work" is 'exhurting effort' - so every tourist is illegally working then (?). This is common with Thai law, intentionally vague and left to the courts and/or authority to dfecide its range. In truth, immigration is quite realistic in its approach to this vagueness and, as said, blatant and obvious 'work' here requires a work permit for each employer and each place of work (WP is for employer AND place of work, not for the individual - i.e. not tranfereable without resubmission).

As to visas, it depends on how often you are likely to come and go, and your age and wealth. There is (again) the possibility to purchase an Elite Card (which used to give 5 year multi-entry visa - dunno if the new version does too, but a possibility) - which will set you back 2 million (though your wife would be covered too I think?). 40 million baht can get you an investors visa (only has to be in a Thai bank account or SET etc).

Now the silly ones are out of the way, there is the Education Visa - useful if you want to learn Thai anyway - this can be renewed each year for a different course (up to 3 years for Thai I believe - different levels - or up to 10 years over all).

Retirement visa if over 50 is probably the only other long term visa possibility (as you are already married).

Outside of this, you can get 6 motnhs tourist visa (3 months extendable) twice a year (outside of the courty). Or do a walk over every 14 days (horror!)

some info: Work Permit - Thailand

bakedbean

Great post, Wolf You're dead right about definition of "work". I remember reading about some expat guy on retirement visa. His wife had some eatery business. And one day he was just taking a cup of tea or coffee to someone in the eatery, and someone nicked him. Geez......

wolf5370

There was a guy in Phuket a couple of years ago that made the news (English language Thai rags) - apparantly his wife owned a bar/cafe (erm, like me ) and he was nabbed by immigration for "working". It appeared that he was welcoming guests - foreigners - with hellos and hand shakes and immigration decided he was a Matradee!

I also personally know a group of musicians who were arrested about a year and a half ago - big news locally and on Thai/expat forums. They were playing in a famous bar (no longer exists sadly) - one, a good friend of mine, turned out to be an overstay (1.5 years over!) and had a hard time with prison and then deportation! The other were fined - all of them have since left the country too. They were blatant though, FaceBook pages advertising themselves as a band for hire here and venues they were playing at. One guy was a family member on holiday - he was up on stage when immigration came in - he was let go after just an hour or so. Immigration were being logical (holiday maker having fun on stage = OK, band advertising, regular sets/venues/times, being paid = naughty, naughty).

The bar owner - another friend - was fined quite heavily, I believe.
Incidently, it is quite hard to get a work permit for music, even if you are performing music that Thais can not readily do (i.e. not taking a job from a Thai). Mostly, they are for tours and short term - like 14 days. I know a few Thai owner bar owners that tried to legitimately hire foreign musicians and found it difficult. Bars still take the chance here though (or pay the right people).

M and M

Wow, thanks for the great replies guys, especially wolf5370 - you really seem to know your stuff, thanks for taking the time to reply.

It sounds like it won't be easy for me to live over there long term. Unfortunately I'm "only" 42, so I can't quite qualify for the retirement option just yet, but that's something I'd definitely consider in the future.

If I can't have a retirement visa yet, is the education visa the only really viable option for a long-term stay? I'm guessing the tourist visa means I can stay for a total of 12 months, then I'd have to leave. Would that mean never being able to return using a tourist visa again?

Debowing

If you are living in Thailand and you work on-line make sure your earnings are not in Thailand, because you should have a work permit and pay tax in Thailand. Your on-line work is actually illegal if you are doing it without a work permit, but if nobody knows about it you should be safe.

As for the visas, 90 days is a NON-IMM visa which you can apply for at a thai emabssy outside of Thailand. It is based on marriage to a Thai National or being a father of Thai National (o), it can also be based on work or business (B) which is the one should apply for. You should have the relevant documents and especially a document saying why you should be based in Thailand for the said job. However, if you do have a NON-IMM (B) visa you are going to be asked to produce a work permit.

So it doesn't look like it is going to be easy for you to achieve this. You can consider Cambodia or Malaysia, because these countries are simpler in their visa system. Basically Thailand only tolerates foreigners to work for a temporary posting and they are interested in foreigners who earn a lot and thus pay more tax. Please post your enquiry at www.thaivisa.com you will find more accurate replies there.

Alan2005

Not necessarily. I've had several non-imm (b) visa's without a work permit. Although I had a work permit while I actually lived there.

The problem that the OP will have getting a business visa is that the UK company employing them (on whatever basis) will have to produce a document stating what their business is in Thailand and why they need a one year multiple entry visa as opposed to a single entry visa. I have heard that Thai consulates have become pickier lately - many people I know (including me) that visit Thailand regularly on business have been refused multiple entry visa's despite have legitimate reasons to visit multiple times a year (i.e. doing real business with Thai companies rather than sitting on a beach remote working)

wolf5370

Most for a tourist visa is 6 months - 3 months plus a 3 month extension. For 1 year you need an Non-Imm. At 42, that rules out retirement Visa - and not being married to a Thai rules out most of the rest of non-imm 'O'. Only volunteer or visiting family left.

Non-Imm B can be gleaned from just having an letter of invitiation for a job or even attending meetings / training, so WP is not always necessary (although for long term - 6+ months it is expected that a WP will be forthcoming - i.e. they will not give a 1 year multi 'B' for meetings / training). With a WP, it can then be extended (actually extension of stay not Visa but that's just splitting hairs) annually without leaving the country.

I would suggest your best bet is either the Non-Imm 'ED' - education visa - normally you would come on just a Visa waiver, go to a school/college/uni/etc that can arrange the paperwork as part of the course, then do a visa run to move on to the Non-Imm 'ED'.

Many people here do survive on the tourist visas though. I have several friends that even do the 15 day walk-over-the-border visa run to Burma every two weeks (expensive way of doing it long term) - some have been doing this more half a decade or more. More usual though is a trip to a neighbouring country for a 6 month (2 X 3 month) tourust Visa.

Oh BTW, don't get too hung up on re-entry permit for 'B' class Non-Imm as rentry permits can be purchased from immigration before doing trips to keep Visa and WP alive (just don't forget to get one if you do go the 'B' visa route).

Longer term there is the possibility of running a business here and hireing 4+ Thais - this allows you to get a WP - there is more to it than that (paid up stocks / tax returns / age of business / etc), but its something else you could look into once you are here - and in under 8 years you will be able to join the grey brigade and get a nice shiny 'OA' class Non-Imm (retirement). You can't work (get as WP to work) on an OA.

A good site to look at is the Hull Conolate in England (do a Google for Thai Consulate Hull) - look at their 'downloads and visas' page for a wealth or documents that are up to date. Note: The rules are the same worldwide, but conmsulates and embassies do their own thing, so even if you fulfiul what Hull requires, your NZ embassy/consulates may say 'no' to the same (or more likely offer limited versions). Consulates are almost always better than embassies btw.

Note: If someone suggest Non-Imm 'O' for volunteer, this Visa has just been changed to only be single entry - which means that if you leave you lose it (can get a rentry permit at immigration though). It can be renewed in Thailand though, with the right paperwork.

From the latest Visa Requirements:
The Non-Immigrant Visa can be granted for the following purposes of visit but only if you provide the required evidence:-

Category “B”

Conducting business in Thailand as an employee of a non Thai company (ie a business based outside Thailand)
or
Taking up employment in Thailand with a company located in Thailand.
or
Undertaking a vocational training course (teaching, diving, boxing, etc).


Category “ED”

Studying in Thailand
or
Taking part in a work study/observation tour in Thailand
or
Participating in a project or seminar
or
Attending a business conference or trade fair
or
Attending as an official at a recognised event
or
Studying as a Buddhist Monk.


Category “O”

Married to a Thai national
or
Visiting family working/living in Thailand
or
Volunteer work
or
Visiting Thailand as Pensioner
or
Visiting Thailand as retired person aged 50 years and over


Chose your best fit - otherwise, Tourist Visa.

Good Luck.

wolf5370

Note: I believe 'being a father of a Thai citizen' is no longer cause to get and 'o' Visa in it's own right. It was only ever for dependant children anyway (including adopted). This was replaced some time ago with the "visiting family" category. There was some noise about it a few years ago when it changed, as originally it was only fathers dropped and not mothers - but I think both have now been dropped. Certainly could fins no clause for them in the current visa rules.

You are also a bit confusing saying that Visas are 90 days. Multiple entry visas allow entry of 3 months at a time over the length of the visa (i.e. for a 1 year visa and 3 monthly border runs, stay can be legally extended to 15 months). However, most (all?) non-imm visas allow in country extensions (if the paperwork/monetary requirements are fulfilled) which means it can be renewed annually with just 90 day reporting in-country (that is either a quick trip to local immigration or via post - I think online is coming soon???) to confirm address - some visas requite an additional extension charge of 1900 baht every 3 months (I think ED requires this). Actually, the Visa ius used to gain the entry stamp - it is the entry permit that is extended (extension of stay) in these cases - not the Visa itself.

Alan2005

I never reported, I just used it as an excuse to go on holiday.

wolf5370

Yes, I don't report either - I pop over to Burma (Thaichek) every 3 months for DVD/Whisky shopping, the arrivals docket counts as a report.

Neda

ED Visa is the best choice as you can get it easily and there's no visa runs for it. let me know if u need any help or info

Debowing

Hello Wolf, It seems you know quite a bit about the immigration issues, so now I will ask you one more thing.

I am working for an Austalian MNC that has recently sold the Thai branch of its business to a local Thai company. I am now on my second yearly extension of Non-IMM B visa due to expire in OCT 13. I also have a WP that has also been extended once and that will end around JUL 13.

I presume that my new employer has to do some paperwork to change the name of the employer in my WP and my visa. Until they get around to doing this, am I breaking the law in any way??