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Old Sep 4th 2017, 11:50 am   #91
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Default Re: Western Women and boys!!

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Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
I agree with what you have said but you must agree that the extreme views about women's dress and likely morality is related to religion.

What you said about tourists places in India is very true, 50 years ago, women there did not expose their bodies on beaches and local young men (out in a group) enjoyed themselves taking photographs and worse! They had only seen women uncovered in films.

Now it is very much changed local women are on beaches in bikinis (but not Muslim women).
What has this got to do with Muslim women.
The UK government warns women about the risks of travelling in India because of the risk of attacks , not from immigrants or Muslims but from local men .
Is Delhi a tourist place ?
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Old Sep 4th 2017, 12:12 pm   #92
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Default Re: Western Women and boys!!

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Originally Posted by GeniB View Post
I think it's patently obvious where the OP was going with this post. Finding a means to discredit immigrants and refugees ..end of.
When the populace becomes uncomfortable and even afraid of new events,the rumours spread.Aided in no small part by the media.
Rapes and sexual attacks amongst the indigenous population ,by the indigenous population has gone on for centuries without much comment. It is abhorrent whoever commits it.We don't need statistic to tell us that
I agree the sensationalist press can make it difficult to ascertain for the casual observer the real situation, but on the opposite side it also seems those due to ideologically rigid views some can often ignore the reality of the effect of the refugees/migrants on communities.

I do not know the reality of the current Italian situation, and just am curious judging from statistic OP presented, at what point should there be a consideration of the effect of the refugees/migrants and whether the current situation should be allowed to continue. Are all the stories wrong ? How can less than 10% of population committing 40% of crimes not be a worrisome statistic ?
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Old Sep 4th 2017, 12:21 pm   #93
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Default Re: Western Women and boys!!

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Originally Posted by EMR View Post
Some years ago a colleague was married to a Spanish girl and we got to know them quite well.
We were discussing the differences in our culture back then in the 70,s when the only contact the vast majority had of Spain and the Spanish was the annual package to the Costas.
Having been on such a holiday we commented on the way Spanish men were like flies around girls on holiday much to the frustration of British males.

Her comment was that due to the stricter moral attitudes within Spanish society that tourists because of their dress, relaxed attitudes to alcohol sex provided an outlet.
She used a phrase which she said translated into, Spanish men view women as either, their mother, sister, family members the girl they will marry or whores.

Not many Spanish Muslim men but a reflection of a different moral attitude.
The number of attacks in India on tourists ( see ukgov advice to women travelling to India among many other countries ) again reflects that it not exclusevly linked to religion but just to testosterone.
I saw similar situation in Spain in the 70's especially before Franco died, and also in Southern Italy. I have no idea what percentage of such crimes in India are done by which group. The Muslim moral attitude , backed up by their Imams, certainly is a strong contributing factor.
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Old Sep 4th 2017, 12:25 pm   #94
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Default Re: Western Women and boys!!

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Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
Reading the above posts I agree with most, and generalisations are usually wrong.

However it is foolish to ignore the fact that some very strict Muslim men (often lacking in education) see women who do not dress modestly or cover their hair as no better than prostitutes. This includes some Imams who have even less experience of 'foreigners'.

This is not just related to "Western" women! It happens in non-Western countries and where there is a Muslim minority.

In the UK the problems happened (partly because of the scandalous number of vulnerable neglected young girls) and because the police were slow to investigate for fear of being accused of racism.
See the excellent report by Prof. Alexis Jay.


https://www.google.co.uk/?gfe_rd=cr&...QDA&gws_rd=ssl
There are educated Muslim men who certainly share the same moral view and are very strict. I am not sure that education has much to do with it as opposed to religious belief combined with tradition. However I would assume if one believes in a multi-cultural society one will then accept such traditions or beliefs.

The fear of being accused of racism does seem to inhibit debate and as you point out actions of the police at times.
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Old Sep 4th 2017, 12:26 pm   #95
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Default Re: Western Women and boys!!

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Originally Posted by morpeth View Post
I saw similar situation in Spain in the 70's especially before Franco died, and also in Southern Italy. I have no idea what percentage of such crimes in India are done by which group. The Muslim moral attitude , backed up by their Imams, certainly is a strong contributing factor.
Once again another poster looking for the big bad Muslim when ever the opportunity arises.
Can you post anything to support any theory that attacks on western women in India are by Muslims.
As you say ,once again, "you have no idea".
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Old Sep 4th 2017, 12:34 pm   #96
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Default Re: Western Women and boys!!

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Originally Posted by EMR View Post
What has this got to do with Muslim women.
The UK government warns women about the risks of travelling in India because of the risk of attacks , not from immigrants or Muslims but from local men .
Is Delhi a tourist place ?
I was pointing out differences according to religion.
Muslims are local.
Those that are ultra-strict have different attitudes to women than non-strict Muslims.

It is not that simple as you have read in the UK government warnings.

Example north Goa--we used to spend a few days there several times a year.
Will never go again--the main problems are Western tourists and Russian criminals.

South Goa within driving distance of our home is quite different ordinary pleasant Russian families, European travellers, local domestic tourists.

Delhi --Janpath area is the main tourist area and is a magnet for local criminals of all kinds. Used to regularly go there---now never again!

Other tourist areas and cities no such problems.

As I said above generalisations are never accurate.
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Old Sep 4th 2017, 12:41 pm   #97
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Default Re: Western Women and boys!!

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Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
I was pointing out differences according to religion.
Muslims are local.
Those that are ultra-strict have different attitudes to women than non-strict Muslims.

It is not that simple as you have read in the UK government warnings.

Example north Goa--we used to spend a few days there several times a year.
Will never go again--the main problems are Western tourists and Russian criminals.

South Goa within driving distance of our home is quite different ordinary pleasant Russian families, European travellers, local domestic tourists.

Delhi --Janpath area is the main tourist area and is a magnet for local criminals of all kinds. Used to regularly go there---now never again!

Other tourist areas and cities no such problems.

As I said above generalisations are never accurate.
In think the woman who cut the genitals of a hindu holy man who raped her had the right idea.
At least she is still alive unlike the girl raped and murdered in Goa earlier this year.
The UK government does not post warnings without reason.
You do not have to be in a country with a high percentage of migrants to be at risk.
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Old Sep 4th 2017, 1:05 pm   #98
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Default Re: Western Women and boys!!

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Once again another poster looking for the big bad Muslim when ever the opportunity arises.
Can you post anything to support any theory that attacks on western women in India are by Muslims.
As you say ,once again, "you have no idea".
It was Bipat talking about the situation in India, I just said I had no idea of situation in India currently in regards to the subject under discussion. So why would I be request to post anything about the situation there ?I do know when my family lived there some years ago, all the Western women who accompanied their husbands and their daughters were told they couldn't dress the way they would back home in certain respects and certain behavior normal at home would invite problems.

As far as I know from past discussions you have neither lived or spent significant amount of time in Islamic countries. It isn't a case of looking for "big bad Muslims" or "big good Muslims". But ignoring the reality of what the religion and traditions of Muslim countries generate hardly brings understanding. The moral code that more religious or traditional Muslims believe in and that influences them, certainly exists.
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Old Sep 4th 2017, 1:12 pm   #99
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Default Re: Western Women and boys!!

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Originally Posted by EMR View Post
In think the woman who cut the genitals of a hindu holy man who raped her had the right idea.
At least she is still alive unlike the girl raped and murdered in Goa earlier this year.
The UK government does not post warnings without reason.
You do not have to be in a country with a high percentage of migrants to be at risk.
Yes, as others have said terrible rapes and murders happen in every country and occasionally even in areas thought very safe.
(We all know that "holy" men are sometimes to be avoided regardless of their official religion).

The UK Government warnings could apply to all countries, and your warning reference as I have pointed out is too simplistic and therefore actually meaningless.

Just as in the UK there are towns/villages women could safely wander about alone after dark, and other areas where they would not dream of doing so.
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Old Sep 4th 2017, 1:22 pm   #100
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Default Re: Western Women and boys!!

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Originally Posted by morpeth View Post
It was Bipat talking about the situation in India, I just said I had no idea of situation in India currently in regards to the subject under discussion. So why would I be request to post anything about the situation there ?I do know when my family lived there some years ago, all the Western women who accompanied their husbands and their daughters were told they couldn't dress the way they would back home in certain respects and certain behavior normal at home would invite problems.

As far as I know from past discussions you have neither lived or spent significant amount of time in Islamic countries. It isn't a case of looking for "big bad Muslims" or "big good Muslims". But ignoring the reality of what the religion and traditions of Muslim countries generate hardly brings understanding. The moral code that more religious or traditional Muslims believe in and that influences them, certainly exists.
Off topic Morpeth --You are talking about 50--70 years ago, you would have a shock now, the dress of some local girls would possibly make you blush!
Have a look at newspapers and the photos of 'celebrities'.
(At one time Pakistani wives were advised not to accompany their cricket team, because of all those 'wanton' Indian women who might influence them!)
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Old Sep 4th 2017, 1:24 pm   #101
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Default Re: Western Women and boys!!

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Originally Posted by morpeth View Post
It was Bipat talking about the situation in India, I just said I had no idea of situation in India currently in regards to the subject under discussion. So why would I be request to post anything about the situation there ?I do know when my family lived there some years ago, all the Western women who accompanied their husbands and their daughters were told they couldn't dress the way they would back home in certain respects and certain behavior normal at home would invite problems.

As far as I know from past discussions you have neither lived or spent significant amount of time in Islamic countries. It isn't a case of looking for "big bad Muslims" or "big good Muslims". But ignoring the reality of what the religion and traditions of Muslim countries generate hardly brings understanding. The moral code that more religious or traditional Muslims believe in and that influences them, certainly exists.
I see no problems with following local practices.
In a few weeks we will again be on our travels to a non Muslim country , where dress codes and behaviour standards have to be followed.
The moral code that more religious or traditional non muslims beieve in and that influences them and certainly exists.
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Old Sep 4th 2017, 1:29 pm   #102
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Default Re: Western Women and boys!!

I see the debate has now moved from Italy to India.

Quelle surprise.
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Old Sep 4th 2017, 1:36 pm   #103
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Default Re: Western Women and boys!!

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Originally Posted by EMR View Post
I see no problems with following local practices.
In a few weeks we will again be on our travels to a non Muslim country , where dress codes and behaviour standards have to be followed.
The moral code that more religious or traditional non muslims beieve in and that influences them and certainly exists.
Quite agree one should respect the local practices in the country one is visiting, staying in or migrating to.
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Old Sep 4th 2017, 1:41 pm   #104
 
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I see the debate has now moved from Italy to India.

Quelle surprise.
It isn't a debate. Debates require the intelligent use of fact to construct logically-sound and irrefutable positions. This stuff has so many logical holes in it my 17 year old could pick it apart.

All this is, is another shit-stirring thread. I have to congratulate the OP and his sidekick - he got what he wanted, yet another thread with people arguing about "migrants" or "immigrants" and muslims as a free bonus.
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Old Sep 4th 2017, 1:47 pm   #105
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Default Re: Western Women and boys!!

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I see no problems with following local practices.
In a few weeks we will again be on our travels to a non Muslim country , where dress codes and behaviour standards have to be followed.
The moral code that more religious or traditional non muslims beieve in and that influences them and certainly exists.
Interested to know which country is that?
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