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Old Sep 8th 2017, 1:37 am   #61
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

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I don't think anyone was proposing to hound Moggy, but a man who takes orders regarding how to think from an imaginary being, and orders that involve deciding for women what rights they have after being raped, doesn't inspire confidence as a national leader and being pressed on that in an interview seems quite legitimate since he is in government. I had my doubts about Blair on that score, too.
The press certainly would have if he attempted to dodge the question viz. T. Farron. It's a legitimate question to ask but as JRM said unless you think he would hold a free vote and then get a parliamentary majority to ban abortion in all circumstances then it's just a straw man argument. If you find his views objectionable that's another matter. Also the Pope isn't imaginary the last time I checked.
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Old Sep 8th 2017, 7:46 am   #62
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

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The problem I have with him is his attitude to abortion, total ban even if the pregnancy is a result of rape, and also the fact that he is totally against same sex marriages. Tim Fearon found himself in real hot water with less narrow views, but Rees-Mogg, if he became PM would have influence on his party, OK he would be unlikely to get the legislation changed, but the elephant would always be in the room.
Precisely my point about him.Nice man or not,his views are archaic. They smack of the old Tory rule. His pedigree makes him the sort of leader the old school love
The do as I say ,not as I do sort. I cannot see him appealing to any forward thinking voter. But then what am I saying. Britain has been heading backwards for a decade now.His appointment would prove that imo.
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Old Sep 8th 2017, 7:52 am   #63
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

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Maybe the DUP should approach Holland and see if King Billy's folks fancy taking them in.....

Having said which, apart from the obvious, the Moggster would seem to have the same reactionary views as "our friends in the North" ...... anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage and I'm sure a lot else too!
They should only 'approach the Netherlands' if they wish to have the daughter of a member of the vile Argentinian 'Junta' as their Queen..
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Old Sep 8th 2017, 8:07 am   #64
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

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The press certainly would have if he attempted to dodge the question viz. T. Farron. It's a legitimate question to ask but as JRM said unless you think he would hold a free vote and then get a parliamentary majority to ban abortion in all circumstances then it's just a straw man argument. If you find his views objectionable that's another matter. Also the Pope isn't imaginary the last time I checked.
The 'imaginary ' part would be the belief in a being that has no proof in fact and never has had. The pope represents that being on earth and through that wields an enormous amount of power over the people.
That well educated,presumable intelligent people still go along with that,to the point that they can make intimate and painful decisions over someone else's life is frankly abhorrent.

when will those in power accept that woman are not 'chattels' ' Their bodies not something about which third parties can feel free to judge. Let's all go back to worshipping the Oak tree,there's at least proof that exists.
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Old Sep 8th 2017, 8:32 am   #65
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

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Precisely my point about him.Nice man or not,his views are archaic. They smack of the old Tory rule. His pedigree makes him the sort of leader the old school love
The do as I say ,not as I do sort. I cannot see him appealing to any forward thinking voter. But then what am I saying. Britain has been heading backwards for a decade now.His appointment would prove that imo.
He certainly won't be everyone's cup of tea but in what way has he been hypocritical?

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The 'imaginary ' part would be the belief in a being that has no proof in fact and never has had. The pope represents that being on earth and through that wields an enormous amount of power over the people.
That well educated,presumable intelligent people still go along with that,to the point that they can make intimate and painful decisions over someone else's life is frankly abhorrent.

when will those in power accept that woman are not 'chattels' ' Their bodies not something about which third parties can feel free to judge. Let's all go back to worshipping the Oak tree,there's at least proof that exists.
'I believe in the teachings of the Catholic church' was the statement. That is very much a tangible institution.

And again he's not looking to make those decisions for others. He was asked for his personal views and he gave them. He was at pains to explain that does not mean that he would be seeking to impose them on others. Everyone seems to be putting up the same straw man argument that he wants to dictate what women can and can't do regarding abortion which simply isn't true.
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Old Sep 8th 2017, 8:51 am   #66
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Isn't all this discussion pointless when the poll of Tory members gave David Davis almost twice as many votes so therefore he is the chief contender for leadership.
Rees-Mogg is a backbencher--holds no Government office.
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Old Sep 8th 2017, 9:01 am   #67
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

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Isn't all this discussion pointless when the poll of Tory members gave David Davis almost twice as many votes so therefore he is the chief contender for leadership.
Rees-Mogg is a backbencher--holds no Government office.
https://www.conservativehome.com/the...e-opinion.html
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Old Sep 8th 2017, 9:03 am   #68
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

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Originally Posted by GeniB View Post
The 'imaginary ' part would be the belief in a being that has no proof in fact and never has had. The pope represents that being on earth and through that wields an enormous amount of power over the people.
That well educated,presumable intelligent people still go along with that,to the point that they can make intimate and painful decisions over someone else's life is frankly abhorrent.

when will those in power accept that woman are not 'chattels' ' Their bodies not something about which third parties can feel free to judge. Let's all go back to worshipping the Oak tree,there's at least proof that exists.
Not all Catholics blindly follow the church's doctrine. My husband is a practicing Catholic (he's had so much practice that he's pretty good at it now ), and is a vocal advocate of a woman's right to choose. He also married me, a divorcee, which meant that our marriage wasn't recognised by the Catholic church. Did it worry him? Not at all. He's in the clear now though, as my ex-husband died

He's discussed his beliefs and decisions with the local priest, and also informed him that he wouldn't be talking about this in the confessional as he can't accept the church's stance on abortion and marriage (including same sex marriage). The priest was wise enough not to object or try to talk him out of his beliefs and he's still welcomed at Sunday Mass.

I'm not Catholic and I abhor much of the Catholic church's doctrine. Scouse and I have had many lively amicable debates but we agree on the issues that are important to both of us.

The point of my post is that you don't have to be unintelligent or unthinking to be a Catholic. I also don't think that Catholics who agree with their church's stance are unintelligent or unthinking. They're just wrong
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Old Sep 8th 2017, 9:24 am   #69
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

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Apologies--my poll results were August --a month ago--if opinions can change that quickly --it doesn't give much indication of what would happen in an actual leadership election. We will see what the October figures show!
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Old Sep 8th 2017, 9:46 am   #70
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

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Apologies--my poll results were August --a month ago--if opinions can change that quickly --it doesn't give much indication of what would happen in an actual leadership election. We will see what the October figures show!
Not to worry. This poll is why he is now being interviewed on television as a potential future Conservative leader. It will be interesting to see if the furore caused by his views on same-sex marriage and abortion will dent his poll lead.
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Old Sep 8th 2017, 10:20 am   #71
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

"We shall have to take our business elsewhere."

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Old Sep 8th 2017, 11:25 am   #72
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Clearly running scared, the Tories will present a new bill to Parliament next week changing the current convention on the make up of parliamentary committees to ensure that there will be a government majority.
This along the the " Henry V111" measures is yet another move to take power away from Parliament and transfer it to the the party in power.
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Old Sep 8th 2017, 11:50 am   #73
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Clearly running scared, the Tories will present a new bill to Parliament next week changing the current convention on the make up of parliamentary committees to ensure that there will be a government majority.
This along the the " Henry V111" measures is yet another move to take power away from Parliament and transfer it to the the party in power.


Which might not be the Tories after next election
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Old Sep 8th 2017, 12:06 pm   #74
 
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

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The press certainly would have if he attempted to dodge the question viz. T. Farron. It's a legitimate question to ask but as JRM said unless you think he would hold a free vote and then get a parliamentary majority to ban abortion in all circumstances then it's just a straw man argument. If you find his views objectionable that's another matter. Also the Pope isn't imaginary the last time I checked.
The pope is indeed not imaginary, but the UK hasn't taken orders from him for a while now

Of course one person would not have that sort of influence in Parliament, but I live in a country where such views as Moggy holds are frequently loudly aired, including by legislators and I would hate to see the return of that sort of conversation to our parliamentary life - still more if the reason you think this way is because a rule book from your imaginary friends says that you should. It isn't so long ago that we put people in prison for homosexuality, and I don't need to rehearse the long, long battle for women to be treated as equals before the law as well as socially.

Such views really have no place in a modern government. If the electorate insist on returning him to Parliament then we are stuck with him, but as I said, someone who holds those views can reasonably be expected to be pressed on them if running for the highest office. Suppose Mr. Khan wanted to be party leader, and his personal belief was that women should cover their faces in public and not go out without male company, because his holy rule book tells him that? Would he be pressed on that? He would, and rightly so.
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Old Sep 8th 2017, 12:24 pm   #75
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

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Such views really have no place in a modern government. If the electorate insist on returning him to Parliament then we are stuck with him, but as I said, someone who holds those views can reasonably be expected to be pressed on them if running for the highest office. Suppose Mr. Khan wanted to be party leader, and his personal belief was that women should cover their faces in public and not go out without male company, because his holy rule book tells him that? Would he be pressed on that? He would, and rightly so.
Thankfully, we still live in a democracy, where a party leader's personal view doesn't determine policy. Blair might have personally believed he was on a 'mission of god' going into Iraq, and it probably influenced the debate, but he still had to gain Parliamentary approval.
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