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Old Apr 16th 2018, 4:51 pm   #331
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

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Originally Posted by EMR View Post
Do you mean like the failed adventures in Afghanistan and Iraq.
The population and Parliament lied to.
Untold numbers of dead, a world changed out of all recognition.
And the socialists would have been voted out if enough people saw those actions as bad.
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Old Apr 16th 2018, 5:07 pm   #332
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

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And the socialists would have been voted out if enough people saw those actions as bad.
Oooh Blue, you are a one!

The socialists
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Old Apr 16th 2018, 5:12 pm   #333
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

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Oooh Blue, you are a one!

The socialists
Thought you might enjoy that.
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Old Apr 16th 2018, 5:46 pm   #334
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

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Originally Posted by Annetje View Post
The Tories do not have a majority though.
It was discussed in Cabinet (I understand).
Parliament was NOT involved (Parliamentary Democracy ...) ?????
Use of military force is a Royal Prerogative. Parliament does not need to be consulted and historically never has been. There was no parliamentary vote to declare war on Germany in 1914 or 1939, no vote regarding the Suez Crisis or the Falkland Islands nor was there was a vote to commit British forces to Kuwait, Kosovo or Afghanistan. Blair started a precedent in 2003 with the invasion of Iraq. Since then there have been three votes, all under David Cameron - Libya in 2011 which passed with a huge majority; Syria in 2013 which was defeated by a slim majority and Syria again in 2015 which was passed by a large majority. If Mrs May chooses not to consult Parliament then that is entirely up to her. Voters can make their views known at the ballot box.
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Old Apr 16th 2018, 6:18 pm   #335
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

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Originally Posted by Annetje View Post
The Tories do not have a majority though.
It was discussed in Cabinet (I understand).
Parliament was NOT involved (Parliamentary Democracy ...) ?????
I didn't say anything about a majority. They have the greatest number of seats in the Commons and were therefore invited to form a government. Parliament does not need to be involved in every decision. I imagine that on this occasion (as on other previous occasions) the leaders of the Opposition parties were briefed. But that is a courtesy, not a requirement.
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Old Apr 16th 2018, 6:32 pm   #336
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

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Originally Posted by BritInParis View Post
Use of military force is a Royal Prerogative. Parliament does not need to be consulted and historically never has been. There was no parliamentary vote to declare war on Germany in 1914 or 1939, no vote regarding the Suez Crisis or the Falkland Islands nor was there was a vote to commit British forces to Kuwait, Kosovo or Afghanistan. Blair started a precedent in 2003 with the invasion of Iraq. Since then there have been three votes, all under David Cameron - Libya in 2011 which passed with a huge majority; Syria in 2013 which was defeated by a slim majority and Syria again in 2015 which was passed by a large majority. If Mrs May chooses not to consult Parliament then that is entirely up to her. Voters can make their views known at the ballot box.
All part of the general trend to return to the 1930s...... it's a good job that Brexit will see parliamentary sovereignty, eh?
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Old Apr 16th 2018, 7:16 pm   #337
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

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Originally Posted by Oakvillian View Post
I didn't say anything about a majority. They have the greatest number of seats in the Commons and were therefore invited to form a government. Parliament does not need to be involved in every decision. I imagine that on this occasion (as on other previous occasions) the leaders of the Opposition parties were briefed. But that is a courtesy, not a requirement.
OK, Parliament does not need to be involved in every decision ... Not even when bombing another country ? Just this little decision ?????
Sounds to me like the Gina Miller case, another little decision.

Who needs Parliament when you have May ....
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Old Apr 16th 2018, 7:38 pm   #338
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

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Originally Posted by macliam View Post
All part of the general trend to return to the 1930s...... it's a good job that Brexit will see parliamentary sovereignty, eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Annetje View Post
OK, Parliament does not need to be involved in every decision ... Not even when bombing another country ? Just this little decision ?????
Sounds to me like the Gina Miller case, another little decision.

Who needs Parliament when you have May ....
I think you both need to brush up on your Bagehot.
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Old Apr 16th 2018, 7:54 pm   #339
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

[QUOTE=Annetje;12482733]The Tories do not have a majority though.
It was discussed in Cabinet (I understand).
Parliament was NOT involved (Parliamentary Democracy ...) ?????[/QUOTE]
Not a democracy any more Annetje, imo it’s a Failed State by 21st cent. democratic standards. Non-approved military adventurism by its minority govt. is just one symptom. Others include -
- Avoiding parliamentary or public scrutiny of decision making processes,
- Retarding access to judicial/ tribunal forums by imposing financial pre-process costs,
- Creation of a hostile domestic environment towards minorities based on their cultures and race,
- Partial media re-appraisal of figures like Enoch Powell, 50 years after his rivers-of-blood speech,
- Targeting/denial of rights and services to presumed immigration defaulters by Govt. Depts. based solely on immigration policy (the so-called Windrush’s Children debacle), without exception,
- Extra-judicial renditions & exclusions of presumed, but untried individuals abroad,
- Default short-term isolationist political policies, claimed to be in the national interest, but having scant regard to their consequences,
- Non-transparent appointments of like-minded coteries to public services and especially awards of public contracts to these similarly-minded cliques.
You have to admit it Annetje– for a minority they ARE doing rather well….
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Old Apr 16th 2018, 8:04 pm   #340
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

[QUOTE=007Steve;12482882]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Annetje View Post
The Tories do not have a majority though.
It was discussed in Cabinet (I understand).
Parliament was NOT involved (Parliamentary Democracy ...) ?????[/QUOTE]
Not a democracy any more Annetje, imo it’s a Failed State by 21st cent. democratic standards. Non-approved military adventurism by its minority govt. is just one symptom. Others include -
- Avoiding parliamentary or public scrutiny of decision making processes,
- Retarding access to judicial/ tribunal forums by imposing financial pre-process costs,
- Creation of a hostile domestic environment towards minorities based on their cultures and race,
- Partial media re-appraisal of figures like Enoch Powell, 50 years after his rivers-of-blood speech,
- Targeting/denial of rights and services to presumed immigration defaulters by Govt. Depts. based solely on immigration policy (the so-called Windrush’s Children debacle), without exception,
- Extra-judicial renditions & exclusions of presumed, but untried individuals abroad,
- Default short-term isolationist political policies, claimed to be in the national interest, but having scant regard to their consequences,
- Non-transparent appointments of like-minded coteries to public services and especially awards of public contracts to these similarly-minded cliques.
You have to admit it Annetje– for a minority they ARE doing rather well….
Yep, that sums it up nicely ... I'm sure if you think about it, you might find some more examples of the newly found ''taking back control''...
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Old Apr 16th 2018, 8:06 pm   #341
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

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Originally Posted by BritInParis View Post
I think you both need to brush up on your Bagehot.
Nothing changed since then ?
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Old Apr 16th 2018, 8:35 pm   #342
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

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Originally Posted by Annetje View Post
Nothing changed since then ?
Nothing to stop Mrs May from dropping a couple of bombs on some Syrian chemical weapon factories.
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Old Apr 16th 2018, 8:55 pm   #343
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

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Originally Posted by BritInParis View Post
Nothing to stop Mrs May from dropping a couple of bombs on some Syrian chemical weapon factories.
After all the terrorist attacks in Europe, I would be a bit worried about repercussions though. And what was the hurry ... ? Syria has been at it for a few years now.
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Old Apr 16th 2018, 9:45 pm   #344
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

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Originally Posted by BritInParis View Post
I think you both need to brush up on your Bagehot.
So I should go back to a time when there was no universal suffrage, capital punishment was common and the "ruling classes" ruled with impunity, eh? Thanks for that, I prefer living in a progressive state.

May has just demonstrated her disdain of Parliament and her autocratic tendencies once again. Royal Prerogative is a historical anomaly that has already been dismissed in all but very special circumstances and the argument that the PM can act and is only "held to account" by Parliament is backdoor pseudo-Presidential power. Regardless of what happened in the Boer War, this is 2018, not 1918 and the world has changed.
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Old Apr 16th 2018, 9:54 pm   #345
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

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Originally Posted by macliam View Post
So I should go back to a time when there was no universal suffrage, capital punishment was common and the "ruling classes" ruled with impunity, eh? Thanks for that, I prefer living in a progressive state.

May has just demonstrated her disdain of Parliament and her autocratic tendencies once again. Royal Prerogative is a historical anomaly that has already been dismissed in all but very special circumstances and the argument that the PM can act and is only "held to account" by Parliament is backdoor pseudo-Presidential power. Regardless of what happened in the Boer War, this is 2018, not 1918 and the world has changed.
Brit living in the past (like many of them older Brits ...)

May & Co went in just before the OPCW investigated, says it all for me.
She just needed her own ''attack'' and proof she is ''the Boss'' and distract the UK people from all the problems (not just Brexit).
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