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Old Oct 5th 2017, 1:54 pm   #22786
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

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Originally Posted by la mancha View Post
My last word on this.

You were created by an organisation as subjects of that organisation. You are merely a delusion and it tells me how far down the road you have come when you really think that one can be a citizen of an organisation, which is all the EU is. If you cast your spell for long enough people will begin to believe it.

We are European citizens, not EU citizens. Each one of us is a member of the EU, not a citizen of it. Because someone passes a treaty and says it is so does not make it so.

Mister Farage was probably speaking as we all do: to clarify the point for those who are so brain washed that they do not know what a citizen really is. Has anyone Googled ‘what is a citizen’ yet?

‘… the EU confers another level of citizenship to the citizens of its member states with all the rights and privileges pertaining thereto.'

Not your comment, I know, but if the EU wants to give member states’ citizens’ rights and privileges, it does not make them citizens of the EU. Unless you tell those Europeans that they are. It is false and delusional.

I did not falsely pass off a comment as my own. I had read it previously and couldn’t find the link when I posted.
To be honest, I think the hair-splitting about the use of this particular phrase is silly, which is hardly surprising since it was created as a kind of false controversy by Eurosceptics.

As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing at all untoward about calling people European citizens, South American citizens etc as a group term and therefore equally nothing at all untoward about referring to the citizens of EU member states as "EU citizens" for short.

The fact is that within the boundaries of the member states any citizen of any other state has (broadly) the same rights as the citizens of the state in which he resides and those are protected at a level beyond the national courts or government. The same is not true of citizens of third countries.

Some people regard that as citizenship of the EU, others quibble. Frankly, I don't see what the quibblers are afraid of in the use of the term - I suppose it's the usual chip, chip, chip away at anything in order to sow doubt and confusion.

Personally, I don't lose any sleep over the matter. I'm a British citizen resident in the EU and that gives me all the reassurance I need about the things that concern me. I don't particularly cling to the idea of "EU citizenship" as such but being a citizen of an EU member state is (or was, until now) important in terms of the protections it gave me (not that they're particularly special - largely what I would expect any decent government to afford foreign residents, in fact but having them enshrined in EU law reassures me).
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Old Oct 5th 2017, 2:43 pm   #22787
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

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Originally Posted by EMR View Post
Finally we have a brexiter who accepts that the EU is just an organisation.
NOT a federal government, in fact a government of any kind, not a dictatorship in fact none of those fantasies dreamed up by many brexiters.
I hope for your sake that no one in Ukip has read your post as you will be instantly blackballed.

There is still some hope for you .
Leave my personal assets out of it.
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Old Oct 5th 2017, 2:47 pm   #22788
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

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Leave my personal assets out of it.
Given you views , I expect your assets to be brilliant white ones.
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Old Oct 5th 2017, 3:39 pm   #22789
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

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Originally Posted by la mancha View Post
My last word on this.
Where have I heard that before?

Quote:
You were created by an organisation as subjects of that organisation. You are merely a delusion and it tells me how far down the road you have come when you really think that one can be a citizen of an organisation, which is all the EU is. If you cast your spell for long enough people will begin to believe it.

We are European citizens, not EU citizens. Each one of us is a member of the EU, not a citizen of it. Because someone passes a treaty and says it is so does not make it so.
Oh, I get it now! People born in Leipzig are still citizens of the GDR still even though it was unified with the DDR over 25 years ago?

People born in Prague are still Czechoslovakian, as are people born in Bratislava?

But we're all citizens of Europe, not the EU?

These treaties can be a bit confusing can't they?
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Old Oct 5th 2017, 3:59 pm   #22790
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

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Originally Posted by la mancha View Post
Because someone passes a treaty and says it is so does not make it so...
I was going for some crack about the war not having ended yet but...

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Originally Posted by Novocastrian View Post
Oh, I get it now! People born in Leipzig are still citizens of the GDR still even though it was unified with the DDR over 25 years ago?
People born in Prague are still Czechoslovakian, as are people born in Bratislava?
But we're all citizens of Europe, not the EU?
These treaties can be a bit confusing can't they?
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Old Oct 5th 2017, 4:04 pm   #22791
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

The discussion about EU citizenship is BS. Citizenship is a legal idea, as such it is created by us and only exists in our mind. It is a fiction. It is not like a mountain that exists whether we see it or not. We can consequently freely redefine citizenship as our democratic majority wants. At the moment the majority of EU citizens want something as a EU citizenship. And magic, there it is. EU citizenship. And British citizens might redefine EU citizenship as none existent which will deprive them of their EU citizenship but luckily will have no impact on the rest of us. So now I will ask all British citizens to come to terms and start staying out of EU affairs. They are not yours anymore, you have no say in it just like Indian citizens have no say in the EU and the EU had no say in India. Please respect our democratic majority who wants an EU and an EU citizenship. Please concentrate your energy on your little island and watch what the EU does from a save distant. Thank you.
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Old Oct 5th 2017, 4:30 pm   #22792
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

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I was going for some crack about the war not having ended yet but...
As far as UKIP supporters are concerned, it hasn't.
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Old Oct 5th 2017, 5:03 pm   #22793
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

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Originally Posted by Assanah View Post
The discussion about EU citizenship is BS. Citizenship is a legal idea, as such it is created by us and only exists in our mind. It is a fiction. It is not like a mountain that exists whether we see it or not. We can consequently freely redefine citizenship as our democratic majority wants. At the moment the majority of EU citizens want something as a EU citizenship. And magic, there it is. EU citizenship. And British citizens might redefine EU citizenship as none existent which will deprive them of their EU citizenship but luckily will have no impact on the rest of us. So now I will ask all British citizens to come to terms and start staying out of EU affairs. They are not yours anymore, you have no say in it just like Indian citizens have no say in the EU and the EU had no say in India. Please respect our democratic majority who wants an EU and an EU citizenship. Please concentrate your energy on your little island and watch what the EU does from a save distant. Thank you.
I was born on a planet called Earth. It wasn't always called that though.

I was born in a region called Europe, but again, it wasn't always called that.

I was born in a country called the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Yet again, it wasn't always called that and it definitely not always a united Kingdom (and why isn't it Queendom ).

All of these names were given by somebody to label somewhere. Whether I call myself an Earther, European, Brit or anything else, they're all just labels. If I choose to call myself an EU citizen, how is that different to the labels already given to me?
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Old Oct 5th 2017, 5:06 pm   #22794
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

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Given you views , I expect your assets to be brilliant white ones.
They’ll be frozen assets come winter if I don't pay the electric bill.

Last edited by la mancha; Oct 5th 2017 at 5:11 pm.
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Old Oct 5th 2017, 5:14 pm   #22795
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

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Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
Whether I call myself an Earther, European, Brit or anything else, they're all just labels. If I choose to call myself an EU citizen, how is that different to the labels already given to me?
but I thought you were none of the above, aren't you a Gooner?
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Old Oct 5th 2017, 7:45 pm   #22796
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

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Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
If I choose to call myself an EU citizen, how is that different to the labels already given to me?
It will say the same thing as the other labels but in about 24 different languages and several different (and confusing) sizing systems. It will also say that you were Made in China
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Old Oct 5th 2017, 7:54 pm   #22797
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

Watched the Channel 4 News panel/audience debate on Brexit. This week all Remainers. Slightly dispiriting that even amongst the Remainers, there are a fair few that question the legitimacy of having another referendum in due course.
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Old Oct 5th 2017, 9:39 pm   #22798
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

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Watched the Channel 4 News panel/audience debate on Brexit. This week all Remainers. Slightly dispiriting that even amongst the Remainers, there are a fair few that question the legitimacy of having another referendum in due course.
We don't need another referendum. We need another election and thus a new governing party.
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Old Oct 5th 2017, 9:48 pm   #22799
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

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but I thought you were none of the above, aren't you a Gooner?
I can be all of them......
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Old Oct 5th 2017, 9:50 pm   #22800
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum

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We don't need another referendum. We need another election and thus a new governing party.
If it was the LD that would work, not certain that Labour would pull back from Brexit. Despite the positive noises Keir Starmer and others make, there's enough pro-Brexit sentiment in the electorate that they may well be compelled to commit to the "will of the people".
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