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Old Sep 22nd 2017, 9:21 am   #91
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Default Re: Bomb Explodes on London Tube

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Originally Posted by dc koop View Post
You're probably going to call me a racist neo Nazi but I'm going to tell you a story anyway about a couple in France who were friends of mine. For several years they owned a small grocery store in the Paris suburb of Gagny.
The business was successful and they made a nice bit of money over time. They decided to open a bigger store in a neighbouring banlieu. They had it newly constructed and it was about twice as big as the average 711 store here in the US. They had marketing research company do a survey beforehand and the company came back with a glowing report of what they could expect from retail sales based on statistics in that particular area.

Near the store was a very large low income block of flats whose tenants were mostly Algerians and Moroccans. The thieving started almost from day one. I told them to install surveillance cameras but back in the 70s such gadgets were a bit too much for the average business owner of a medium sized food market to be able to afford. I spent some time with them at the store working as an unpaid security guard prowling up and down the aisles several hours a day but the thieving went on and on. In the end the couple ended up at the stage where they were forced to close the store. They could get no co-operation from the local police. They just couldn't be bothered knowing what the neighbourhood was like I suppose. This happened after I had returned to the US.

A few years later my wife and I took a trip to Paris and my wife had her purse stolen on the Paris Metro Underground. The culprits were a couple of Algerian youths. Fortunately our French friend was with us and she called out the thieves and managed to retrieve the purse intact. I suppose the two of them must have heard us speaking English and took us for dumb tourists with no knowledge of French.

Anyway that's my experience of the Algerian species and enough said
..... and that has what to do with refugees fleeing war? Again, you seem incapable of seeing beyond the individual. How many similar stories have there been in the USA - except there the robbers are more likely to use guns. Algerians in France have been poorly treated historically and are the dominant minority. They happen to be muslim. In the Brixton riots the rioters happened to be black. Your point is??

I really don't care about your politics, but you have serious issues in the way you understand the world. Best stay in your bubble and don't travel to places where they speak funny.....
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Old Sep 22nd 2017, 9:55 am   #92
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Default Re: Bomb Explodes on London Tube

The Algerian 'species' undoubtedly has a different code of conduct, record levels of crime in Algeria itself this year indicates as such, with growing lawlessness and unrest.

In this internet age, I think there is danger when you have sizeable groups of disaffected people within a society, especially if they consider they're not being given an equal opportunity footing e.g "Algerians in France have been poorly treated historically and are the dominant minority."

Historically, this perceived second billing has been the catalyst for the riots in Brixton etc and in the US by the 'dominant minority'.

It's a difficult balancing act, remaining true to our liberal and humanitarian values without compromising the security of society. It has to be managed very carefully, no open door.
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Old Sep 22nd 2017, 10:05 am   #93
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Default Re: Bomb Explodes on London Tube

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The Algerian 'species' undoubtedly has a different code of conduct, record levels of crime in Algeria itself this year indicates as such, with growing lawlessness and unrest.

In this internet age, I think there is danger when you have sizeable groups of disaffected people within a society, especially if they consider they're not being given an equal opportunity footing e.g "Algerians in France have been poorly treated historically and are the dominant minority."

Historically, this perceived second billing has been the catalyst for the riots in Brixton etc and in the US by the 'dominant minority'.

It's a difficult balancing act, remaining true to our liberal and humanitarian values without compromising the security of society. It has to be managed very carefully, no open door.
...... and 39,000 asylum applications (from all over the world) to a country with a population of 67m and the 5th (or 9th, depending on your preferred measure) richest in the world, in a year of untold horrors, is an open door?

Again, there seems to be a problem separating asylum and migration. The latter should be controlled, the former has to be managed. Neither should be selected by race or religion.

Of course, with so many "experiences" being shared here, my attitudes may have been formed by the fact that I am an immigrant myself - as (supposedly) are many of the people on here. The difference is, I'm white, educated and speak English as a mother tongue ........ so it's not so easy to pick me out in a crowd (apart from the shamrock behind my ear and the shillelagh) Then again, it might be because I've travelled widely, speak a few languages and lived in South London at the time of the riots...
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Old Sep 22nd 2017, 1:09 pm   #94
 
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Default Re: Bomb Explodes on London Tube

This is what happens when people fuel that "migrants do this/Muslims do that" nonsense.

Parsons Green attack: Aladdins takeaway 'received abuse' - BBC News

It wouldn't have been the shop owner's fault even if the staff member had been guilty. As it happens the man has been released without charges.

People should really stop peddling that garbage.
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Old Sep 22nd 2017, 2:05 pm   #95
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Thank you for putting things in perspective. There were almost 700 homicides in Enland and Wales during 2016 - less than in Chicago alone. How many of these were down to terrorism? It appears the UK sould consider banning entry for anyone from the USA, as it's obviously a danger.......

What's the excuse for those who kill without even a sham ideology to hide behind - and what would the "Just Say No (to Refugees)" mob do about them? Or is it OK for them to kill because they're not "foreign"?

As always, far easier to pick on a group and demonize them, eh?
I think the US crime statistics might be relevant IF Americans visiting the UK were committing such crimes, just out of interest does anyone know how many murders are committed in the UK by Americans each year ?
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Old Sep 22nd 2017, 2:09 pm   #96
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Default Re: Bomb Explodes on London Tube

In the last 1500 years when has this ever ended well, and why should it be different now?
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Old Sep 22nd 2017, 2:17 pm   #97
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Default Re: Bomb Explodes on London Tube

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I think the US crime statistics might be relevant IF Americans visiting the UK were committing such crimes, just out of interest does anyone know how many murders are committed in the UK by Americans each year ?
No, no - it doesn't matter if they actually do anything ...... best not even to take the risk!!
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Old Sep 22nd 2017, 2:20 pm   #98
 
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I think the US crime statistics might be relevant IF Americans visiting the UK were committing such crimes, just out of interest does anyone know how many murders are committed in the UK by Americans each year ?
Sometimes, I just scratch my head.

The point of the "crimes committed by Americans" analogy is to demonstrate that it is completely invalid to suggest that national origin, immigrant status, genetic diversity, religion, etc etc are determinants of crime.

What you are doing here is continuing the fallacy.

Honestly, people should be made to take basic logic classes
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Old Sep 22nd 2017, 2:22 pm   #99
 
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In the last 1500 years when has this ever ended well, and why should it be different now?
Yeah, let's just put everyone back where they came from. I'm sure the African continent will be thrilled.
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Old Sep 22nd 2017, 2:25 pm   #100
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And yet in this purported "melting pot", the rate of violent death in LA is way higher than in London. Hmmm...



I don't doubt that a sizeable number of people paint all muslims with the same brush. I can't see how that's a reasonable rationale for turning our backs on refugees.

A certain very small amount of the Muslims coming into Europe as migrants/refugees or whatever will have some level of terrorist sympathies, and a somewhat higher amount have similar objectives as the terrorists. Thus increasing their numbers increases the risk, as well as the future influence of such ideology. This is just common sense.

That doesn't mean all Muslims are a risk and I don't think any reasonable person would hold that position.
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Old Sep 22nd 2017, 2:34 pm   #101
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Default Re: Bomb Explodes on London Tube

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Sometimes, I just scratch my head.

The point of the "crimes committed by Americans" analogy is to demonstrate that it is completely invalid to suggest that national origin, immigrant status, genetic diversity, religion, etc etc are determinants of crime.

What you are doing here is continuing the fallacy.

Honestly, people should be made to take basic logic classes
I can see both sides of the above arguments.
The points about history are irrelevant --it is now that matters. The potential atrocities committed against innocent people would be in far greater numbers without extensive security and they are committed by Muslim extremists who believe in exterminating non-Muslims--not just the ordinary disagreement about non-Muslims of the non-extremists. It is foolish to ignore this.
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Old Sep 22nd 2017, 2:39 pm   #102
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Default Re: Bomb Explodes on London Tube

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A certain very small amount of the Muslims coming into Europe as migrants/refugees or whatever will have some level of terrorist sympathies, and a somewhat higher amount have similar objectives as the terrorists. Thus increasing their numbers increases the risk, as well as the future influence of such ideology. This is just common sense.

That doesn't mean all Muslims are a risk and I don't think any reasonable person would hold that position.
and....???
The same thing could be said about an Irish person, or a Basque in France, etc., etc. What does it prove - let's stop all movement???

I will make this very VERY clear, we are not talking statistics, we are not talking risk aversion, we are not talking management, we are not talking vetting, we are talking about condemning thousands of people to death, were those in charge to take the attitudes expressed by some people here. And if they still arrive on the Greek islands, or Sicily or wherever, what then - send them back to almost certain death? or should we just shoot them anyway, to save ourselves the problem?

I don't have a very high opinion of politicians, but at least they recognize the problem (or most of them at least, excluding those who see it as a way to whip up support). This might seem very easy to those of you across the pond, despite your experience with illegals from Mexico. But Europe has the problem NOW and your petty justifications for doing nothing are like wan*ing to put out a fire!
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Old Sep 22nd 2017, 2:42 pm   #103
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Default Re: Bomb Explodes on London Tube

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I can see both sides of the above arguments.
The points about history are irrelevant --it is now that matters. The potential atrocities committed against innocent people would be in far greater numbers without extensive security and they are committed by Muslim extremists who believe in exterminating non-Muslims--not just the ordinary disagreement about non-Muslims of the non-extremists. It is foolish to ignore this.
Correction - by terrorists who actually kill far more muslims than anyone else and whose nihilist ideology makes anyone other than themselves the enemy.
Check what's happening in Syria and Iraq - who is dying there?
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Old Sep 22nd 2017, 2:55 pm   #104
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Sometimes, I just scratch my head.

The point of the "crimes committed by Americans" analogy is to demonstrate that it is completely invalid to suggest that national origin, immigrant status, genetic diversity, religion, etc etc are determinants of crime.

What you are doing here is continuing the fallacy.

Honestly, people should be made to take basic logic classes
Yes I quite agree basic logic classes would be helpful. If Americans visiting Britain are not committing murders, then what Americans do back in their country isn't relevant as to whether it is a risk for Britain allowing so many to visit.

" is to demonstrate that it is completely invalid to suggest that national origin, immigrant status, genetic diversity, religion, etc etc are determinants of crime." Actually it is quite valid to consider many factors which may be of relevance to crime, hence why police worldwide quite often rely on profiling to determine where to lace their resources. If I am an airport security guard and I only have time to insect one person, would I inspect the young Muslim male or the 80 year old nun ?
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Old Sep 22nd 2017, 3:00 pm   #105
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Default Re: Bomb Explodes on London Tube

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I can see both sides of the above arguments.
The points about history are irrelevant --it is now that matters. The potential atrocities committed against innocent people would be in far greater numbers without extensive security and they are committed by Muslim extremists who believe in exterminating non-Muslims--not just the ordinary disagreement about non-Muslims of the non-extremists. It is foolish to ignore this.
I believe the issue isnt about exterminating non-Muslims, but to establish Islamic states.

I agree "now" is what matters.
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