Pulaski

Yet AGAIN you have conflated "freedom of movement" with other matters that are unrelated. The EU chose to include "freedom of movement" with other trade-related freedoms, but there was no requirement to do so, and there is no reason, other than pure political bloody-mindedness, that freedom of movement couldn't be restricted or even eliminated without impacting the free trade aspects of the single market. "Friction free trade" has NOTHING to do with "freedom of movement" for individual, other than that the EU chose to combine them both in the same treaty, and the benefits that the "vast majority" are benefiting from are the derived from the benefits of free trade, not from freedom of movement.

So, back to the matter that you deliberately or ignorantly misrepresented, freedom of movement - this has very little benefit to the large, very large majority of EU citizens who have no interest in uprooting their lives and traveling hundreds of miles to a country with a different culture and a language that they have limited, or no, grasp of.

Certainly I, for one, had absolutely ZERO interest in moving to ANY country in Europe, and would happily vote against participation in any deal that gives unrestricted rights to live in the UK to any non-English speaking aliens with a different, sometimes radically so, culture.

Of course the grand plan of Germany had been that freedom of movement would allow German companies to suck in huge numbers of Greeks, Italians, and Spaniards when their economies tanked, as they inevitably would under the burdens imposed by the euro. However people from those countries appear to have very little interest in transplanting themselves to Germany even when their own country is in the toilet. So even when circumstances strongly suggest that people should take advantage of freedom of movement, very large numbers of people resist taking up their freedom of movement rights.

You obviously have your agenda, that you promote tirelessly, but I wish you would stop making up çräp to support your opinion.

dougal03

I am not sure you are correct in stating that(I can only say about)Spaniards having no interest in emigrating to Germany.When we came to Spain 30 odd years ago,we found in our area of Costa Blanca that there were a large amount of young people born here with German parents.Remember Franco was sympathetic to the German cause during WW2 & many Germans fled here just before war ending.We employed a Spanish tradesman to do some alterations who explained that his Father had been working for them on properties they bought in the1940,s in this area,notably La Nucia & Calpe.There was a restaurant on the Benidorm-La Nucia road where every 20th.April,a special dinner was held in their previous leader,s memory for his birthday.As happens everywhere,later generations remember their past roots & many young Spanish DID go to take up employment in Germany especially those who had been in construction jobs.This was not only confirmed by my Spanish son-in-law but our local papers ran adverts. even offering language classes for those wanting to relocate.We have a very multi-cultural society here which I can see that is much integrated since we came to Spain,obviously particularly after Spain joined the EU.Many other countries have borders with another speaking a different language & they often easily adapt to that one also.Unlike Britain which does not have that advantage.Pulaski,I have no knowledge of how that works out in the USA but I think you would find that the Europeans are rather more flexible than you imagine.

Pulaski

My point was based on the observation that there have been extremely high levels of unemployment in Spain for at least a decade - 25%, and I have seen figures as high a 50% in some age groups in some areas. If "freedom of movement" was all it is cracked up to be, then most of the unemployed would have decamped to Germany or another country in the area, such as the Netherlands, Austria, Switzerland, etc. My post was based on the fact that very few Spaniards have made that move.

Rosemary

However, your knowledge is not at ground level so you are reliant on what appears on the internet.

As the building trade was very heavily hit by unemployment many tradesmen did in fact go to other countries in the EU to find work, they did not move their families so they did not in fact "decamp" as you put it. I personally know that this situation was widespread within the construction industry. So the freedom of movement allowed them to work in other places whilst maintaining their families at home. Therefore, the unemployment figures would have been much higher than shown on the internet if they had not had this freedom.

Rosemary

Moses2013

Hmm, you'll actually find that has been the case. At least here in Ireland we've never had more Spanish than now. And not everyone has the qualifications or the skills to get a job. You'll also find that Germany has millions of unemployed, so there isn't a job for everyone. Switzerland is also not in the EU.

Pulaski

Again, not really my point. If freedom of movement was "perfect", with workers sloshing around the EU like water in a bathtub, unemployment would be approximately equal across the entire EU. It isn't.

Pulaski

Also not really my point, which was about the millions who haven't moved, not the relatively much smaller number who have.
But Switzerland is IS covered by the freedom of movement regs - Switzerland had to sign up for that in order to access the Single Market. .... That is why Brexit is such a tough nut to crack - the EU doesn't want Britain to have access to the Single Market without signing up for the related freedom of movement clause.

Moses2013

Where does that logic come from Pulaski? If Americans can move freely within the US, why do some States have higher unemployment than others.

Moses2013

EU citizens still need a resident permit to work there.

Pulaski

Thankyou! That is EXACTLY my point!!! ..... Freedom of Movement doesn't work for a large majority of people. They aren't interested in it, and it has no value to them.

People continue to live in the NYC and SF areas when the cost of housing there is absurd and housing is often very small and/or overcrowded, and yet people live there because the like the area, they have friends and relatives etc, and of course there are jobs. Some of them later retire, to Florida or Arizona, in the same way that Brits retire to Spain, but they are basically expats within the US, tied for the bulk of their life to the state where they were born and grew up, relatively few head off to other states and many of them return "home" when they get fed up, laid off, or retire.

Moses2013

Of course it works because many people living in SF NYC areas weren't born there. They moved there freely.
Just to add, how many people who were born in Manhattan moved to Queens etc.

Pulaski

You're still looking at it from the wrong end - "many" people might have moved to NYC and SF, but vastly, many times more did not, they didn't even leave their home state.

It's the many who didn't move who don't give two hoots about Freedom of Movement.

Moses2013

But how many people from that State travelled to another State without having to apply for a Visa? Even if the majority of people didn't move to a different State, they still moved house or went to a different neighbourhood. Example: A lot of Dutch people commute to Germany or go shopping (vice versa). They live in a different country but the commute distance would be less than the commute for some people working and living in California, or even the commute within NYC.

Pulaski

Still mostly small numbers. US states are large and few live close to the state line and commute across the line. Exceptions would include NYC, NJ (both into NY and PA), states around DC because DC is tiny, and St Louis which sits on the state line. Nearer to me people commute into Charlotte from SC, but there are still hugely more people who commute from within NC rather than crossing from SC. ..... And numbers commuting across state lines into many states, including CA, TX, and FL are inevitably negligible because the major population centers where the jobs are, are not on state lines.

OTA63

None of that is to say that the "vast majority" did not WANT to move in search of a better life whether it be from one EU country to another or from one US state to another.
There are a million and reasons why they may not have taken the plunge be it the uncertainty, separation from their families or anything else. The Freedom of Movement act just made it easier for those who were willing to take the plunge.