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Spain in the 21st century but somebody is responsible

Spain in the 21st century but somebody is responsible

Old Mar 24th 2005, 2:37 pm
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Thumbs down Spain in the 21st century but somebody is responsible

I have just picked up today's copy of the Euro Weekly and have read the headline story with utter disbelief and horror - I thought at first I was reading an article about a third world country and not Spain who has had billions of euros of EC money for infrastructure etc. Visit this webpage:-

http://www.euroweeklynews.com/

Surely the first question to be asked of the Town Hall is who gave permission for the construction of houses in a "zona rustica" in the first place.

The same authority that told me on Tuesday morning that the plan I have showing the division and percentages of the land is nothing to do with them even though I obtained it from them and the paper contains references to the Ayuntamiento de Chiclana de la Frontera. However they made no mistake in informing me that it was for certain I would be charged IBI and urbanisation costs on the 33.3% of land I do not have and they can do nothing about it and advised me to consult a Lawyer.

Yesterday I was also told by a reputable estate agent that if you do not use a lawyer from Chiclana when you come to buy or resell your property here then the sale will not go through. You can draw your own conclusions from this!!

I am really sorry for any of you out there who are caught up in this situation through no fault of your own. I would again advise people to be extremely cautious and wary when considering a property purchase in Chiclana. If you have not already done so then please read my thread Spanish Homeowners Beware.

http://britishexpats.com/forum/showthread.php?t=253684

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Old Mar 24th 2005, 9:00 pm
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Default Re: Spain in the 21st century but somebody is responsible

Originally Posted by mitzipurr
Surely the first question to be asked of the Town Hall is who gave permission for the construction of houses in a "zona rustica" in the first place. your property here then the sale will not go through.
What makes you think that the Ayuntamiento actually gave permission ?
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Old Mar 24th 2005, 9:32 pm
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Thumbs down Re: Spain in the 21st century but somebody is responsible

Originally Posted by Nige
What makes you think that the Ayuntamiento actually gave permission ?
I did not say that they gave permission - just posing the question?? I understood that in order for builders to construct they need papers rubber-stamped from the Ayuntamiento - but then again maybe they dont??? What I am saying is that somebody in authority is responsible for not stopping the illegal constructions in the first place. It is difficult to believe that the Town Hall or anyone else did not know what was actually going on.....
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Old Mar 25th 2005, 10:48 am
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Default Re: Spain in the 21st century but somebody is responsible

It used to be the case, and possibly still is in some areas, that it was cheaper to build a property without permissions and "pay later", than go through the process of getting permits.

"Pay later" meaning the policia local would eventually trundle up your road for a beer and fine you some minute amount which you paid to avoid them having to go back to the town hall and go about the motions of threatening to tear the place down.

Regulations have moved on a bit but you're talking about a country where *anybody* was quite happy to build a shack, hut, house or mansion, over a few weekends.


Have you had a change of mayor at your local ayuntamiento?







Originally Posted by mitzipurr
I did not say that they gave permission - just posing the question?? I understood that in order for builders to construct they need papers rubber-stamped from the Ayuntamiento - but then again maybe they dont??? What I am saying is that somebody in authority is responsible for not stopping the illegal constructions in the first place. It is difficult to believe that the Town Hall or anyone else did not know what was actually going on.....
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Old Mar 25th 2005, 2:56 pm
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Thumbs down Re: Spain in the 21st century but somebody is responsible

Originally Posted by svenskidoo
It used to be the case, and possibly still is in some areas, that it was cheaper to build a property without permissions and "pay later", than go through the process of getting permits.

"Pay later" meaning the policia local would eventually trundle up your road for a beer and fine you some minute amount which you paid to avoid them having to go back to the town hall and go about the motions of threatening to tear the place down.

Regulations have moved on a bit but you're talking about a country where *anybody* was quite happy to build a shack, hut, house or mansion, over a few weekends.


Have you had a change of mayor at your local ayuntamiento?
I am not certain if we had a change of Mayor at the ayuntamiento.

It is more likely that the Electric company has forced their hands into doing something about the problem instead of conveniently closing their eyes as to what is going on in Chiclana.
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Old Mar 27th 2005, 6:49 pm
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Default Re: Spain in the 21st century but somebody is responsible

Originally Posted by mitzipurr
I am not certain if we had a change of Mayor at the ayuntamiento.

It is more likely that the Electric company has forced their hands into doing something about the problem instead of conveniently closing their eyes as to what is going on in Chiclana.

From what I've been observing, a lot of it is down to the naivety of the buyers who, in their eagerness to buy and in their lack of knowledge not just of the language but the customs and procedures, went in gung ho ready to put their trust in the seller who himself would have said anything in order to close the sale. I've bought various properties and signed rental agreements on others and never had a single problem. If you read what is in your contract you have no problem - incidentally, in every case we never used a lawyer. Most Spaniards I know don't either.
Going in with eyes wide open would certainly have helped in this situation IMHO. This is not to say that the vendors are wholly without blame.

Stating that you think this is Third world here suggests to me that you're not really happy here - fine. One of the very reasons that these people are now getting their fingers burnt is because the authorities DON'T want to be seen as third world by formalising correctly all arrangements - many of the "deals" done were as someone suggested earlier by means of a nod and a wink and a worry about it later attitude. This is something the council is trying to stop.
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Old Mar 27th 2005, 7:59 pm
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Default Re: Spain in the 21st century but somebody is responsible

Originally Posted by The Guardiana
From what I've been observing, a lot of it is down to the naivety of the buyers who, in their eagerness to buy and in their lack of knowledge not just of the language but the customs and procedures, went in gung ho ready to put their trust in the seller who himself would have said anything in order to close the sale. I've bought various properties and signed rental agreements on others and never had a single problem. If you read what is in your contract you have no problem - incidentally, in every case we never used a lawyer. Most Spaniards I know don't either.
Going in with eyes wide open would certainly have helped in this situation IMHO. This is not to say that the vendors are wholly without blame.

Stating that you think this is Third world here suggests to me that you're not really happy here - fine. One of the very reasons that these people are now getting their fingers burnt is because the authorities DON'T want to be seen as third world by formalising correctly all arrangements - many of the "deals" done were as someone suggested earlier by means of a nod and a wink and a worry about it later attitude. This is something the council is trying to stop.
I totally agree that people are naieve. However in my case this was the second property I have bought in Spain the first one I had no problems or dodgy things. As for reading the private contract then that would have been great if only I had one to read at that time.

You have been extremely lucky to have done all your "deals" many without any legal assistance. Most of the British people relocating to Spain have it drilled into them by Television, Press etc that they must use a Spanish Lawyer and Notary. The British Embassy also reaffirms this and can even supply a list of reputable lawyers.

I dont think it is a third world country I just meant that not having any water or electric which is a basic human right makes it seem like that.

I fully agree that the electric company are rightly clawing back what is theirs to provide but it seems from what you are saying then the authorities who have done deals on a nod and a wink are now fortunate enough to be able to turn the tables on the unfortunate.

Where are all the Estate Agents, Lawyers etc who surely knew of the problems with new builds in regard to electricity supplies etc? A question has to be asked how they allowed people to purchase these properties in the first place? The majority of Expats will certainly feel more "safe" using the services of these people and would indeed feel very uneasy about your suggestion of going it alone.

I for my part am very fortunate not to have any of these problems as I one thing I did was to make certain there was an electric contract which was signed over to me upon purchase of the property at the Notary. However I am not without problems altogether if you read my post Spanish Property Buyers Beware.

I started this thread on behalf of the unfortuate ones...
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Old Mar 27th 2005, 11:06 pm
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Default Re: Spain in the 21st century but somebody is responsible

A lot of those who suggest you must use a solicitor tend to be the ones getting a kickback from advertising or commissions from ... firms of solicitors.

I'd agree that most Spanish people do not use solicitors, the same way as they don't like to use estate agents.

The Spanish system is a lot more straightforward than the British one and this, in some cases, leaves you panicking and wondering what the hell is going on - as you are not being bombarded with letters from solicitors asking stupid questions .

There are good and bad sides to using a solictor. Bad one might be they charge you up front for a lot of work they'll never actually do.

Moving on:

Contracts will usually detail everything you need to know and the notary will/should read out every part of the contract of sale and make clear any areas which might be a problem such as "pedro has a debt of 50 euros for water which he is going to pay ... if he doesn't you will be liable" etc.

Agents aren't necessarily going to know every possible problem that exists or could arise. In a lot of cases problems like these arise because what worked before ( a few odd houses on rustic land) doesn't work any longer because a few houses has become 50 or 100 or more.

IMHO if anyone feels they have been the victim of criminal wrongdoing, then they should stroll down to the local Guardia Civil and fill out a denuncia, without wasting anymore time.

On a final note: taking out a mortgage in Spain is initially expensive when compared to the UK (setup fees, tax etc) but you benefit from the fact that your Bank will have an active interest in making sure you get what you think you are buying. A bit of protection, as part of the service.
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Old Mar 28th 2005, 7:32 am
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Unhappy Re: Spain in the 21st century but somebody is responsible

I'd just like to say on the question of using a solicitor, that things can still go badly wrong even if you do.

We recently purchased a small property and did everything by the book and used a recommended solicitor. We have now found out there are debts on the place which we've got to foot the bill for or our services will be cut-off.

It seems there is no action we can even take against the lawyer in question, so yes 'House buyers in Spain' BEWARE !!
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