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Old Oct 2nd 2017, 3:14 pm   #16
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Default Re: Scenes in Catalonia

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Originally Posted by amideislas View Post
It must be rather embarrassing to have wished so long for the collapse of the EU (and having read the daily mail, having been convinced it was inevitable), only to find it getting stronger. Now this might bring back hope for a total collapse, as you suggest.

If Catalonia exits, it will be like Brexit. The EU won't look fondly on it, and like Britain, Catalonia would be the one who suffers the most.

But if that's what they want... Then so be it. Just like Brexit. But it's just another "everybody loses" proposition. Just like Brexit.
Crikey true colours showing there. There are chilling similarities to the kind of responses we used to hear from the Soviet Politburo, when people in Poland and elsewhere were protesting to try and re establish their nation states and were being attacked by their own police .

Juncker has flown in today to give Rajoy guidance no doubt. According to the Vice President of the European Parliament (Ramón Luis Valcárcel):
"Today we have witnessed a nationalistic propaganda act, undemocratic; a coup attempt against Spanish democracy, and so a coup against Europe"

The Eu cannot allow Catalonia to break away from Spain. There would be a flood of others especially in Italy but also Flanders and Pays Basque ( Part of France and part of Spain!)

Yep you are right the EU aren't looking fondly at it.
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Old Oct 3rd 2017, 7:06 am   #17
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Default Re: Scenes in Catalonia

Come on Guys! You're living in Spain long enough to know (as Frank Underwood said - House of Cards) Democracy has it limits.

The Spanish Police Forces live in barracks which was their way of policing installed permanently after the Civil War - a gift from uncle Franco.

This is a Spanish problem and a Spanish solution will be found. The English speaking nations caused enough problems outside of their mother countries; don't even think of getting involved in Spain. Spaniards have a unique way of dealing with their own problems. I'm sure we have enough of our own so let them do what they do.
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Old Oct 3rd 2017, 8:26 am   #18
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Default Re: Scenes in Catalonia

Article 2 of the Lisbon Treaty says :

The Union is founded on the values of respect for human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights, including the rights of persons belonging to minorities. These values are common to the Member States in a society in which pluralism, non-discrimination, tolerance, justice, solidarity and equality between women and men prevail.

Article 2

Rajoy:

“If there is something to conclude from today, it is the strength of Spain’s democratic state,” Mr. Rajoy said on Sunday. “We have acted with the law and only with the law and we have shown that our democratic state has resources to defend itself against such a serious attack.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/01/w...eferendum.html


How can anyone justify this?
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Old Oct 3rd 2017, 8:30 am   #19
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Default Re: Scenes in Catalonia

Franco died but his ideas did not go away.
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Old Oct 3rd 2017, 6:33 pm   #20
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Default Re: Scenes in Catalonia

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Originally Posted by billgates View Post
Article 2 of the Lisbon Treaty says :

The Union is founded on the values of respect for human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights, including the rights of persons belonging to minorities. These values are common to the Member States in a society in which pluralism, non-discrimination, tolerance, justice, solidarity and equality between women and men prevail.

Article 2

Rajoy:

“If there is something to conclude from today, it is the strength of Spain’s democratic state,” Mr. Rajoy said on Sunday. “We have acted with the law and only with the law and we have shown that our democratic state has resources to defend itself against such a serious attack.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/01/w...eferendum.html


How can anyone justify this?
As a Gibraltarian I can assure you Spain has never honoured Article 2
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Old Oct 3rd 2017, 7:16 pm   #21
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Default Re: Scenes in Catalonia

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Originally Posted by Leper View Post
Spaniards have a unique way of dealing with their own problems. I'm sure we have enough of our own so let them do what they do.
You mean civil war with atrocities on both sides ? yeah let em carry on
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Old Oct 3rd 2017, 11:06 pm   #22
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Default Re: Scenes in Catalonia

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Not my words but this does make sense IMO:

The EU is in self-preservation mode. Their nightmare scenario goes.

Catalonia becomes independent and takes its revenue with it.

Rump Spain starts running an increasingly large deficit and starts getting into financial trouble.

A major Euro nations gets into financial trouble - a failing Spain is big enough to break the Euro.

A broken Euro would be the financial crisis to end all financial crisis's.

In many ways it's the law of unintended consequences at work. In trying to create a European superstate, the EU has:

Weakened the national identity of the nation states that make up the EU.

Given the potential for an newly independent state to join the single market - albeit after a minimum of five years to tick all the required boxes.

Chickens are slowly heading home to roost.
Very true, whichever way they look the Dictatorial Eu Empire Building project is falling apart.

I see Jean Clown Juncker is in Madrid giving lessons on Democracy.
Oh, the irony !
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Old Oct 4th 2017, 9:33 am   #23
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Default Re: Scenes in Catalonia

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Originally Posted by Leper View Post
The Spanish Police Forces live in barracks which was their way of policing installed permanently after the Civil War - a gift from uncle Franco.
You are confusing the National Police with the Guardia Civil. National police operate on a very similar basis to most European police, Guardia Civil are a Gendarmerie Force (something UK does not have) they are based on a more military basis, they do have not barracks but accommodation where they are based but yes also have some barrack type camps.

Most of the very bad policing I have seen from Barcelona in the media in fact was National Police rather than the Guardia. They seemed to me I'll trained and out of control.

Last edited by Rosemary; Oct 4th 2017 at 9:47 am. Reason: corrected quote
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Old Oct 4th 2017, 2:38 pm   #24
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Default Re: Scenes in Catalonia

Police state?
As an ex steel worker I well remember, and witnessed the atrocious scenes at Orgreave during the miners strike, in the Thatcher era.
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Old Oct 4th 2017, 3:05 pm   #25
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Default Re: Scenes in Catalonia

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Originally Posted by bobd22 View Post
You are confusing the National Police with the Guardia Civil. National police operate on a very similar basis to most European police, Guardia Civil are a Gendarmerie Force (something UK does not have) they are based on a more military basis, they do have not barracks but accommodation where they are based but yes also have some barrack type camps.

Most of the very bad policing I have seen from Barcelona in the media in fact was National Police rather than the Guardia. They seemed to me I'll trained and out of control.

What surprised me was the Mossos didn't get involved. Even if it was against their own people, I've never known them to show restraint - they love a good fight.
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Old Oct 4th 2017, 3:51 pm   #26
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Default Re: Scenes in Catalonia

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Police state?
As an ex steel worker I well remember, and witnessed the atrocious scenes at Orgreave during the miners strike, in the Thatcher era.
"Let those who are without sin cast the first stone!"
Pete
Yes, but that was in the days before video recording was commonplace. And police forces could expect to get away with such behaviour.

Has anyone any indication as to the likely attitude of Carles Puigdemont and his Catalan European Democratic Party towards ex-pats, especially Brits?
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Old Oct 5th 2017, 6:59 am   #27
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Default Re: Scenes in Catalonia

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Originally Posted by Rotor View Post
You mean civil war with atrocities on both sides ? yeah let em carry on
The situation in Barcelona probably will not ignite in armed terms, but it has the potential for such. If it does ignite, please let the UK, EU, Ireland etc keep out of it. It's hardly our business. The Spaniards (including Catalans) have their own way of dealing with things. Let them sort out their own future, peacefully, I hope!
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Old Oct 5th 2017, 9:08 am   #28
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Default Re: Scenes in Catalonia

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Originally Posted by Leper View Post
The situation in Barcelona probably will not ignite in armed terms, but it has the potential for such. If it does ignite, please let the UK, EU, Ireland etc keep out of it. It's hardly our business. The Spaniards (including Catalans) have their own way of dealing with things. Let them sort out their own future, peacefully, I hope!

Yes, let's all look the other way.
I mean, it's not as if it could ever happen to us could it?

The Catalan police force did not want to go up against their own people and deserve credit for that. The GC and NP are not the police. They work for the government. In any credible democracy the police only exist because the people wish to be policed. I don't mean Dixon of Dock Green, but the people should respect the police in the same way that the police should respect the ordinary people they server. As soon as that contract is broken you have a police state where the rule of law means a beating for anyone who steps out of line.

There can never be a situation where it is acceptable for government to authorise violence against its own people. In the case of the October 1st Referendum Rajoy only needed to declare the referendum meaningless and that the result would be ignored. What he did was unforgivable.

Now he's sending in the troops and still the EU stay silent. How can anyone who respects democracy support this? It would appear that this is the true face of the EU.
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Old Oct 5th 2017, 3:26 pm   #29
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Default Re: Scenes in Catalonia

On the one hand, I believe in the right to self-determination. On the other hand, as the Catalans are pro-EU, I do not understand the need for it. Or am I missing something?
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Old Oct 5th 2017, 3:36 pm   #30
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Default Re: Scenes in Catalonia

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On the one hand, I believe in the right to self-determination. On the other hand, as the Catalans are pro-EU, I do not understand the need for it. Or am I missing something?
Hi and a warm welcome to the Spanish forum on BE. Myself and Fred James are the moderators for the Spanish forums whilst BEVS moderates Europe. Moderators are there to ensure that the site runs smoothly within the rules of BE. This is so that members gain the information that they are looking for and find their experiences on the forums to be friendly and worthwhile.

Problems and complaints should always be addressed to a moderator who will look into the matter and deal with it efficiently and fairly. Our members who post in the Spain Forums are usually friendly and helpful with a wealth of knowledge about the issues of living in Spain. I hope that you enjoy your time participating in the forums.

Please let me know if you need any further help.

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