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Old Oct 1st 2017, 2:09 pm   #1
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Default Scenes in Catalonia

Terrible scenes in Barcelona, with IMO, apparent vicious repression of demonstrators.
I appreciate the referendum had been declared "illegal" by the Spanish government, but surely there could have been a better way of dealing with the issue?
Done little to enhance Spain's reputation in the eyes of the world I would think, especially reports of counter demonstrators chanting "Viva Franco".
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Old Oct 1st 2017, 2:51 pm   #2
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Default Re: Scenes in Catalonia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Countryboy1 View Post
Terrible scenes in Barcelona, with IMO, apparent vicious repression of demonstrators.
I appreciate the referendum had been declared "illegal" by the Spanish government, but surely there could have been a better way of dealing with the issue?
Done little to enhance Spain's reputation in the eyes of the world I would think, especially reports of counter demonstrators chanting "Viva Franco".
Democracy has never existed in Spain
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Old Oct 1st 2017, 2:55 pm   #3
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Default Re: Scenes in Catalonia

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Originally Posted by Fredbargate View Post
Democracy has never existed in Spain
I didn’t mention the word.........deliberately!
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Old Oct 1st 2017, 4:48 pm   #4
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Default Re: Scenes in Catalonia

I first came to Spain before Franco kicked the bucket. I can confirm that democracy is very much greater than under the fascist regime! There may be some way to go but that is true of a number of W European countries including England.
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Old Oct 1st 2017, 7:46 pm   #5
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Default Re: Scenes in Catalonia

Not my words but this does make sense IMO:

The EU is in self-preservation mode. Their nightmare scenario goes.

Catalonia becomes independent and takes its revenue with it.

Rump Spain starts running an increasingly large deficit and starts getting into financial trouble.

A major Euro nations gets into financial trouble - a failing Spain is big enough to break the Euro.

A broken Euro would be the financial crisis to end all financial crisis's.

In many ways it's the law of unintended consequences at work. In trying to create a European superstate, the EU has:

Weakened the national identity of the nation states that make up the EU.

Given the potential for an newly independent state to join the single market - albeit after a minimum of five years to tick all the required boxes.

Chickens are slowly heading home to roost.
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Last edited by Rotor; Oct 1st 2017 at 8:24 pm.
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Old Oct 1st 2017, 8:41 pm   #6
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Default Re: Scenes in Catalonia

It must be rather embarrassing to have wished so long for the collapse of the EU (and having read the daily mail, having been convinced it was inevitable), only to find it getting stronger. Now this might bring back hope for a total collapse, as you suggest.

If Catalonia exits, it will be like Brexit. The EU won't look fondly on it, and like Britain, Catalonia would be the one who suffers the most.

But if that's what they want... Then so be it. Just like Brexit. But it's just another "everybody loses" proposition. Just like Brexit.
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Old Oct 2nd 2017, 4:07 am   #7
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Default Re: Scenes in Catalonia

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Originally Posted by Biffta View Post
I didn’t mention the word.........deliberately!
Interesting response - seeing as countryboy1 is OP
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Old Oct 2nd 2017, 4:11 am   #8
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Default Re: Scenes in Catalonia

The scenes shown on the news here were shocking - police stomping on people, throwing them down stairs, dragging them by their hair, etc.

Not a good luck for sure
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Old Oct 2nd 2017, 6:29 am   #9
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Default Re: Scenes in Catalonia

Quote:
Originally Posted by marcbernard View Post
I
first came to Spain before Franco kicked the bucket. I can confirm that
democracy is very much greater than under the fascist regime! There may
be some way to go but that is true of a number of W European countries
including England.
Likewise

He said: "It has been chilling. I have seen riot police in
action in many parts of the world. Normally riot police are dealing
with riots.

"These were people carrying out what they believe was their democratic
right - going into polling stations peacefully, putting a mark on a
peace of paper and putting it in a box.

"And for doing that, in the European Union, police were pulling them out
by their hair...they were being stamped upon they were being thrown to
one side - and then rubber bullets being used to disperse them."

Catalonia independence vote: 'Hundreds injured' in referendum clashes
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Old Oct 2nd 2017, 11:41 am   #10
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Default Re: Scenes in Catalonia

Quote:
Originally Posted by amideislas View Post
It must be rather embarrassing to have wished so long for the collapse of the EU (and having read the daily mail, having been convinced it was inevitable), only to find it getting stronger. Now this might bring back hope for a total collapse, as you suggest.

If Catalonia exits, it will be like Brexit. The EU won't look fondly on it, and like Britain, Catalonia would be the one who suffers the most.

But if that's what they want... Then so be it. Just like Brexit. But it's just another "everybody loses" proposition. Just like Brexit.
Nothing is only ever negative. With everything is a positive and a negative. Even with Brexit and Catalonia. However, there are folks who want to see a negative only. May be this is what small island life does to people?
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Old Oct 2nd 2017, 12:23 pm   #11
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Default Re: Scenes in Catalonia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Countryboy1 View Post
Terrible scenes in Barcelona, with IMO, apparent vicious repression of demonstrators.
I appreciate the referendum had been declared "illegal" by the Spanish government, but surely there could have been a better way of dealing with the issue?
Done little to enhance Spain's reputation in the eyes of the world I would think, especially reports of counter demonstrators chanting "Viva Franco".
I think it is difficult for a foreigner to really understand the depth of feelings in Catalunia - amazing interview with an OAP so pleased to be able to vote for independence after years of being "subjected" to Madrid regime - has harboured resentment ever since the Civil War.
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Old Oct 2nd 2017, 12:28 pm   #12
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Default Re: Scenes in Catalonia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loafing Along View Post
I think it is difficult for a foreigner to really understand the depth of feelings in Catalunia - amazing interview with an OAP so pleased to be able to vote for independence after years of being "subjected" to Madrid regime - has harboured resentment ever since the Civil War.
You may be correct in your view that the depth of feeling is difficult to understand by foreigners, but these scenes are beamed around the world and impact upon the world view of Spain and its political and social stability. So notwithstanding whether or not foreigners understand the issue, it must affect Spain’s image in the eyes of the world and perhaps have an impact upon its economic outlook.
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Old Oct 2nd 2017, 1:04 pm   #13
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Default Re: Scenes in Catalonia

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Originally Posted by Biffta View Post
You may be correct in your view that the depth of feeling is difficult to understand by foreigners, but these scenes are beamed around the world and impact upon the world view of Spain and its political and social stability. So notwithstanding whether or not foreigners understand the issue, it must affect Spain’s image in the eyes of the world and perhaps have an impact upon its economic outlook.
Absolutely - comes across as a semi-police state in which Madrid rules with an iron rod.
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Old Oct 2nd 2017, 1:41 pm   #14
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Default Re: Scenes in Catalonia

My in-laws live in Barcelona and said it was such a weird day yesterday - we usually head to Barcelona at this time of year but chose not to due to the vote.

My father in law is a retired doctor, Catalan through and through and voted to exit. But he's not a "separatist" or an activist - just thinks it's for the best to preserve Catalan culture. My mother in law is from Madrid, with her family being solidly PP (though she is not - she's a PSOE supporter). The family switch between Spanish and Catalan with zero efforts (FIL speaks Catalan to the kids, Spanish to MIL and me).

Anywho - they live between Sagrada Familia and Gracia and said that if you weren't aware of anything going on - you wouldn't have noticed. Their precinct was peaceful, they went at 8 - voted (which is earlier than they tend to get up, but they wanted to go before there was any trouble). Said the atmosphere was "fiesta like". They went and had a coffee in a local bar and got a text from Sister in law who was caught up in one of the protests (not as a protester, she was on her way to the medical clinic where she works).

Their attitude was...seeing how Rajoy's dealt with this...it's pushing people that were on the fence to supporting the independence movement.
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Old Oct 2nd 2017, 2:01 pm   #15
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Default Re: Scenes in Catalonia

Has there been even the slightest indication as to whether ex-pat Brits will, or will not, be welcome in an independent Catalunya?
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