jdr

Good post. ;-)

rugbymatt

Its funny isnt it, the Skinhead, a symbol of the neo fascist and far right, was actually started as a growing movement among the working class who were ardent Rude Boy and Ska fans!

jdr

Me on the left as a teenager, mohair suits were hanging in the car, we were skinheads but certainly not racist.

rugbymatt

So maybe there is something in what people are saying about perception of racism then.

HBG

Jamaicans in Mile End? You've got to go to Bow, turn left and it will take you to Hackney, where I used to live. Funnily enough, if we wanted an all-white night out in the sixties, we went down to Mile End.

After many years away, I went to Dalston a couple of years ago, and after my business there went to go into what used to be my local. An extremely large black bouncer barred my way and said that I couldn't go in.

I asked him if my friend, George, was still running the bar, and he couldn't stop apologising, insisting on buying me a drink once inside. George had retired, but one of his son's was running the bar.

Fortaleza

This topic is hard to deal with when using our own Anglosaxon morality to assess the behaviour and traits of another culture and its moral standards.

Using a British mentality, it is too easy to say 'Spain is a racist country'. To us, coming from a country where the PC brigade rule and nobody can open their mouth with be accused of being an '-ist' of whatever kind, lots of things that we see in Spain, using our yardstick, we would consider racist.

But to discuss this better, I think it would serve better to get out of the Anglosaxon mindset and try and get into the Spanish way of thinking.

To say Spain is racist is inaccurate. What is a fair thing to comment, though, is that a typical Spanish characteristic is to be wary of the Forestero, the outsider. Hardly surprising given the vast size of the country and long before we had super-duper roads and rail connections, it would be unusual to encounter people from outside your general area. So, of course, people not from Spain were and are foresteros. But it goes deeper than that. Spaniards not from the immerdiate area were also considered forasteros. It could even go deeper still as outlined in this little anecdote:

"I am from Isla Cristina, so I am Isleño, Onubense (inhabitant of the province of Huelva), Andaluz and Spanish."
His neighbour replies: "Yes, but I am from the Punta del Caiman part of Isla Cristina, so I am Puntero first, then Isleño, Onubense, Andaluz, and Spanish"
A third man says: "But you live in the shitty Malvinas part of the Punta...." and so on. You listen to the story in its entirety and you get down to comparisons between apartment blocks and which floor you are on.

Is this racism? No. Is this a fear or wariness of people not from your particular circle? Absolutely.

Of course, over the years, as individual mobility has increased and towns all across the country filled with people from all parts of Spain and beyond this attitude has softened considerably. Yet, for example, in my town there is an older guy who was born in Galicia but moved here in his late teens. He has spent far more years in this town than he has in Galicia, but he is always referred to as El Gallego. (With so many Manuels and Pacos, everyone has a nickname!)

Going a stage further, now that attitudes to Spanish outsiders to the village have softened and are accepted as a norm, the last 10-15 years or so has seen a huge influx of foresteros from all over the shop - North Africa, Eastern Europe, South America as well as the Brits and other North Europeans. They have all arrived in unprecedented numbers. So the forstero wariness rears its head again. Are they against the North African because he is North African or because he is an outsider?

Not a single one of us on here who lives in Spain can honestly say they have never encoutered a degree of this reaction to outsiders - some reations more extreme than others. Is it racism? Not necessarily. It is easy for the ignorant to use racism as a tool in their wariness of the forestero, and of course that happens here in Spaini as much as it happens anywhere else.

Another take on this is that as you may have noticed, Spaniards generally like to express themselves for bad or for good. They don't tend to keep things pent up. HOw many times have you heard comments like: "Oh, you've had a haircut? It's quite bad really. Hope you didn't pay too much." It is not a joke, it is not even an insult - although in the UK we would never dream of saying anything like that to anyone. It is an acceptable observation. With that in mind, if Spaniards have a problem with outsiders, foreign or Spanish (Sevillanos is a bugbear in our town), it is generally out in the open. But it doesn't tend to be aggressive. Compare this to the UK where it seems we are all too busy slapping each other on the back at how very PC we have all become, how we have all worked hard to eradicate racism, but at the same time there is an ugly undercurrent of what I can only describe as repressed racism. Go to the terraces of football and even rugby and listen to what is muttered (in some cases even shouted) should a black player make a mistake. The colourful judgements of the players' ability will usually have a few racist adjective attached. You hear it in the pubs, in the workplace - usually low mutterings but it is there. Is this not more dangerous? That low rumbling may soon become a roar as frustrations come out.

That said, in Spain many good jobs are not occupied by immigrants. But then also, not many are occupied by Brits either, unless it is for a non-Spanish company or it is their own business.

However my town is a bit of a pioneer. Whilst it took til 2008 for the US to elect a black leader, Isla Cristina was well ahead of the game back in 1979.
http://www.islacristinadigital.com/?id=0501001&n=208

jdr

If you went there at the weekend you would of heard the bluebeat coming from Tredegar Square man. lol

littlelambfound

Fortalesa: Good post.

For all the Spainish tolerence I see, (and with Spain having a history of colonies), I should be interested how attitudes pan out over the next few years. For many unemployed Spanish, the dole will have finished, coupled with rising debt and negative job prospects might lead to more open expressions of racism.
I spend most of my time here in Gandia, but pop off to work every once in a while to Budapest. There, due to a finacial melt down, and coupled with a sense of injustice throughout their history, peeps are now looking to extremly racist parties to right perceived wrongs. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6457752.ece
Reading the other day of that poor illegal immigrant worker, whose arm was torn off in a factory accident, and was then left 200m from the hospital, whilst his arm was thrown into the rubbish made me wonder whether he would of received the same treatment as a Spaniard.

livit

Yet you started a thread with the same title last year.

It was closed after 5 pages.

It can be read here.

http://britishexpats.com/forum/showt...n+spain&page=5

Fortaleza

Another thing to consider when talking about Racism and Spain is something that manifests itself in almost every part of Spanish life. Spaniards basically don't like being told what to do! What does this have to do with racism, well I'm getting there.

After decades of Franco, and of course through experience of other regimes, today's Spaniard has a lot more empathy with the fellow man than maybe other countries do. It is a tricky, thorny subject. Whilst a Spaniard may be morally opposed to something, for example homosexuality, most of them would be reluctant to see it outlawed. To ban something is a reminder of previous dictatorships and fascist regimes. To prohibit another's right to live how they want to live - even if you yourself are against it - is totally unnacceptable and a restriction of freedom, something Spaniards of a certain age hold very dear given what they had before.

To be intolerant then of other races is a dilemma for some Spaniards. On the one hand they may not like the idea of foreigners being in their town, but on the other they cannot be seen to intolerant of it. Of course, there are always some who will struggle with this dilemma more than others.

In a recent study for Observatorio Español del Racismo y la Xenofobia, two out of three Spaniards find it "unacceptable" to exclude a muslim child from school for wearing a veil. Remember the brouhaha over that in the UK a few years back. 62% don't believe immigrants are 'taking jobs from Spaniards' but 59% believe that because they are willing to work for less they drive down salaries for everyone.

Fred James

Can we concentrate on this thread please.

bealerDSB

<<snip>>

I am the type of person who is always thankful and gracious of being able to work/live in a country that is not of my natural birth. I have worked in many countries over the years..

I have see more cases over many years of "Brits that like to be seen living abroad, and also behave far much worse that in the UK".

They (Overseas Brits), can be arrogant and down right uncouth. I can easily say I've seen more bad Brits in Spain than bad Spanish in Spain - and doubt that will ever change / alas.

It only takes one or several occasions to change the perspective in someones mind. As my "Mom" once said -

'What costs nothing that you can't buy??'

MANNERS.

DSB

rugbymatt

It was more likely to have been closed because it was an inactive thread and more than a year old, I believe thats what happens to them.


On the subject of that thread though, what can be taken from it is the reaction of Featherbum, a Spaniard, and the way she felt about the situation with Hamilton.

THATS what I am trying to understand, the perspective of everyone involved, the Expat, the visitor, the Spaniards etc.

Its also helped me realise, which I didnt know, that Relampago is or was, Son of Spain.

jackytoo

probably not spanish either

Just a question for all the fellow Brit haters, why come to live on the CB/CDS if that's your view? Every little pueblo has had ex-pats for ten years or more. Do you all wander around with a sense of superiority that you are better than all the Brits? Does the spanish know you are "different"

rugbymatt

OK, at the risk of going over old ground, that has always bugged me. When I lived in Spain we occasionally had to have dealings with the Expat community and I would hear it all the time.... "We moved here to get away from the immigrants in the UK"............ "We came here to get away from our fellow Brits"

Then they lived in pretty much British exclusive communities, hell in one Urb there was an active and well organised campaign to "oust" the French villa owners.