"Neater Heaters"
Nov 6th 2014, 7:12 pm
#16
FreeThinker
Joined: Nov 2009
Location: the moors and levels
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Re: "Neater Heaters"
Here
Here
and Here
erm ... no.
all electric resistance heaters are 100% efficient
All electric heating is 100 percent efficient.
If the heater does not give out light or sound, then it
is 100 % efficient because any "wasted" energy will
also be heat. In this case, the energy is not wasted.
is 100 % efficient because any "wasted" energy will
also be heat. In this case, the energy is not wasted.
Nov 6th 2014, 7:18 pm
#17
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Location: the moors and levels
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Re: "Neater Heaters"
I look forward to confirmation/evidence of that.True. Different methods of heating may be more apt than others for different scenarios. It doesn't change the amount of heat produced per kilowatt of electricity used.
Nov 6th 2014, 10:06 pm
#18
Joined: Jun 2006
Location: Granada Costa
Posts: 10,894
Re: "Neater Heaters"
The only form of electrical heating that breaks that rule is AC as it uses the heat pump principle which extracts heat from the surrounding environment.
In my opinion all these so called efficient heaters are an advertising con trick. You cannot beat the science involved, however many ludicrous claims you make in uncontrolled advertising.
As for "infra red " heaters, they are pretty good for grilling a steak, but for heating a house - words fail me!
Nov 7th 2014, 8:36 am
#19
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 6,148
Re: "Neater Heaters"
I totally agree - it is simple physics theory.
The only form of electrical heating that breaks that rule is AC as it uses the heat pump principle which extracts heat from the surrounding environment.
In my opinion all these so called efficient heaters are an advertising con trick. You cannot beat the science involved, however many ludicrous claims you make in uncontrolled advertising.
As for "infra red " heaters, they are pretty good for grilling a steak, but for heating a house - words fail me!
The only form of electrical heating that breaks that rule is AC as it uses the heat pump principle which extracts heat from the surrounding environment.
In my opinion all these so called efficient heaters are an advertising con trick. You cannot beat the science involved, however many ludicrous claims you make in uncontrolled advertising.
As for "infra red " heaters, they are pretty good for grilling a steak, but for heating a house - words fail me!
Last edited by Moses2013; Nov 7th 2014 at 8:38 am.
Nov 7th 2014, 10:45 am
#20
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Location: the moors and levels
Posts: 9,702
Re: "Neater Heaters"
Unfortunately most governments are against electric heaters, because renewable energy isn't the norm everywhere. We also have AC and it's great (even here people don't believe it's cheap to run), but Infrared is a complete different heat and unfortunately many are misinformed (not talking about patio heaters). It just makes me laugh when people say it's all the same. You'll also find that electric cookers aren't the same and have a different energy rating. If I have two ovens and want to make a pizza (Temp 180 c), you'll find that one oven will use less electricity to cook the pizza. The same with cars, how come one car can drive 20 miles further than the other, although they used the same petrol, drove at the same speed and have the same tank size? You can't compare different types of heat. We also have a downflow fan heater in one small bathroom and it's cheaper to use for us, because in that room we only need instant heat for a short time. An infrared panel heater also wouldn't be used the same way people use radiators that run with oil/gas.
There could be many reasons that one oven uses more electricity to cook a pizza than another - size and quality of insulation being obvious ones. In the same way it takes more electricity to heat a big, poorly insulated room than a small well insulated one.
A small, aerodynamic, light car will go further than a big, heavy one for obvious reasons but I don't see how that is relevant.
You are right - you can't compare different types of heat (thermal energy) because there aren't different types of heat.
There are however different types of electric heater and some may well be more suited to some situations than others for instance a large high room like a church or village hall might well benefit from overhead infrared heaters - not much point in using convector heaters to heat the roof space.
The point is that 1 kW of electricity will produce 1 kW of heat. Not a lot you can do about it.
Nov 7th 2014, 11:00 am
#21
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 483
Re: "Neater Heaters"
Hang on a mo.
Does this mean when i pop down to Leroy Merlin i'm just as well off buying an oil filled rad at 50€ than the latest wifi controlled Newatt Graphene panels at 500€ (Newatt UK's graphene radiators consume just a fraction of electricity)
Who's pulling who's plon*er?
Does this mean when i pop down to Leroy Merlin i'm just as well off buying an oil filled rad at 50€ than the latest wifi controlled Newatt Graphene panels at 500€ (Newatt UK's graphene radiators consume just a fraction of electricity)
Who's pulling who's plon*er?
Nov 7th 2014, 11:17 am
#22
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 6,148
Re: "Neater Heaters"
All electric heaters use the same amount of electricity to produce the same amount of heat.
There could be many reasons that one oven uses more electricity to cook a pizza than another - size and quality of insulation being obvious ones. In the same way it takes more electricity to heat a big, poorly insulated room than a small well insulated one.
A small, aerodynamic, light car will go further than a big, heavy one for obvious reasons but I don't see how that is relevant.
You are right - you can't compare different types of heat (thermal energy) because there aren't different types of heat.
There are however different types of electric heater and some may well be more suited to some situations than others for instance a large high room like a church or village hall might well benefit from overhead infrared heaters - not much point in using convector heaters to heat the roof space.
The point is that 1 kW of electricity will produce 1 kW of heat. Not a lot you can do about it.
There could be many reasons that one oven uses more electricity to cook a pizza than another - size and quality of insulation being obvious ones. In the same way it takes more electricity to heat a big, poorly insulated room than a small well insulated one.
A small, aerodynamic, light car will go further than a big, heavy one for obvious reasons but I don't see how that is relevant.
You are right - you can't compare different types of heat (thermal energy) because there aren't different types of heat.
There are however different types of electric heater and some may well be more suited to some situations than others for instance a large high room like a church or village hall might well benefit from overhead infrared heaters - not much point in using convector heaters to heat the roof space.
The point is that 1 kW of electricity will produce 1 kW of heat. Not a lot you can do about it.
Have you ever touched a surface warmed by the sun on an early spring day and felt a pleasant warmth, even when a thermometer indicates cold? The principal behind Infrared heating lies in understanding how the sun rays work. They are a mixture of electromagnetic waves ranging from infrared (IR) to ultraviolet rays (UV) which travel through the atmosphere without the need of air or any other medium to carry them. When sunrays reach the object, they heat it from the inside leaving it warm without heating the air around it. Infrared rays are just under the visible light range in the electromagnetic spectrum.
Infrared heating works by directly heating walls, floors, things located in a room and a human body, instead of heating the air. Then heated objects release their heat into the environment. Infrared heating creates the surroundings where the floor is warmer than the ceiling. Such method of heating is more pleasant to a human body than the convectional heating that heats the air and relies on air currents to spread the heat in the room.
In comparison with the conventional heating, the Infrared heating minimises the difference between floor and ceiling temperatures. It may significantly reduce heating costs, as it heats square meters instead of heating cubic metres. The Infrared heating acts directly and that means it does not require any contact such as air currents to carry the heat. Therefore, the temperature in the room may be easily maintained and restored if needed. The heat is accumulated by the structure of a building and things in the room and then slowly released in to the air.
Nov 7th 2014, 12:07 pm
#23
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 6,148
Re: "Neater Heaters"
All electric heaters use the same amount of electricity to produce the same amount of heat.
There could be many reasons that one oven uses more electricity to cook a pizza than another - size and quality of insulation being obvious ones. In the same way it takes more electricity to heat a big, poorly insulated room than a small well insulated one.
A small, aerodynamic, light car will go further than a big, heavy one for obvious reasons but I don't see how that is relevant.
You are right - you can't compare different types of heat (thermal energy) because there aren't different types of heat.
There are however different types of electric heater and some may well be more suited to some situations than others for instance a large high room like a church or village hall might well benefit from overhead infrared heaters - not much point in using convector heaters to heat the roof space.
The point is that 1 kW of electricity will produce 1 kW of heat. Not a lot you can do about it.
There could be many reasons that one oven uses more electricity to cook a pizza than another - size and quality of insulation being obvious ones. In the same way it takes more electricity to heat a big, poorly insulated room than a small well insulated one.
A small, aerodynamic, light car will go further than a big, heavy one for obvious reasons but I don't see how that is relevant.
You are right - you can't compare different types of heat (thermal energy) because there aren't different types of heat.
There are however different types of electric heater and some may well be more suited to some situations than others for instance a large high room like a church or village hall might well benefit from overhead infrared heaters - not much point in using convector heaters to heat the roof space.
The point is that 1 kW of electricity will produce 1 kW of heat. Not a lot you can do about it.
Nov 7th 2014, 12:30 pm
#24
FreeThinker
Joined: Nov 2009
Location: the moors and levels
Posts: 9,702
Re: "Neater Heaters"
I doubt you actually ever even tried comparing different electric heaters. You would have then found out that infrared is completely different:
Have you ever touched a surface warmed by the sun on an early spring day and felt a pleasant warmth, even when a thermometer indicates cold? The principal behind Infrared heating lies in understanding how the sun rays work. They are a mixture of electromagnetic waves ranging from infrared (IR) to ultraviolet rays (UV) which travel through the atmosphere without the need of air or any other medium to carry them. When sunrays reach the object, they heat it from the inside leaving it warm without heating the air around it. Infrared rays are just under the visible light range in the electromagnetic spectrum.
Infrared heating works by directly heating walls, floors, things located in a room and a human body, instead of heating the air. Then heated objects release their heat into the environment. Infrared heating creates the surroundings where the floor is warmer than the ceiling. Such method of heating is more pleasant to a human body than the convectional heating that heats the air and relies on air currents to spread the heat in the room.
In comparison with the conventional heating, the Infrared heating minimises the difference between floor and ceiling temperatures. It may significantly reduce heating costs, as it heats square meters instead of heating cubic metres. The Infrared heating acts directly and that means it does not require any contact such as air currents to carry the heat. Therefore, the temperature in the room may be easily maintained and restored if needed. The heat is accumulated by the structure of a building and things in the room and then slowly released in to the air.
Have you ever touched a surface warmed by the sun on an early spring day and felt a pleasant warmth, even when a thermometer indicates cold? The principal behind Infrared heating lies in understanding how the sun rays work. They are a mixture of electromagnetic waves ranging from infrared (IR) to ultraviolet rays (UV) which travel through the atmosphere without the need of air or any other medium to carry them. When sunrays reach the object, they heat it from the inside leaving it warm without heating the air around it. Infrared rays are just under the visible light range in the electromagnetic spectrum.
Infrared heating works by directly heating walls, floors, things located in a room and a human body, instead of heating the air. Then heated objects release their heat into the environment. Infrared heating creates the surroundings where the floor is warmer than the ceiling. Such method of heating is more pleasant to a human body than the convectional heating that heats the air and relies on air currents to spread the heat in the room.
In comparison with the conventional heating, the Infrared heating minimises the difference between floor and ceiling temperatures. It may significantly reduce heating costs, as it heats square meters instead of heating cubic metres. The Infrared heating acts directly and that means it does not require any contact such as air currents to carry the heat. Therefore, the temperature in the room may be easily maintained and restored if needed. The heat is accumulated by the structure of a building and things in the room and then slowly released in to the air.
a) when you copy and paste advertising spiel you credit where you got it from and
b) You aren't going to convince anyone about the efficiency of infrared heating by quoting direct from infraredtechnologies.co.uk
I suspect that a manufacturer of convector heaters would bang on about the benefits of how his heaters heat the air and not the walls
Nov 7th 2014, 12:34 pm
#25
FreeThinker
Joined: Nov 2009
Location: the moors and levels
Posts: 9,702
Re: "Neater Heaters"
Hang on a mo.
Does this mean when i pop down to Leroy Merlin i'm just as well off buying an oil filled rad at 50€ than the latest wifi controlled Newatt Graphene panels at 500€ (Newatt UK's graphene radiators consume just a fraction of electricity)
Who's pulling who's plon*er?
Does this mean when i pop down to Leroy Merlin i'm just as well off buying an oil filled rad at 50€ than the latest wifi controlled Newatt Graphene panels at 500€ (Newatt UK's graphene radiators consume just a fraction of electricity)
Who's pulling who's plon*er?
I feel a complaint to the ASA coming on...
Nov 7th 2014, 12:47 pm
#26
FreeThinker
Joined: Nov 2009
Location: the moors and levels
Posts: 9,702
Re: "Neater Heaters"
Different types of heaters are good for doing different kinds of jobs.
Patio heaters were mentioned earlier. Infrared heaters are good at this job as they heat things (e.g. people) instead of the surrounding countryside.
The same benefit would probably not be so obvious in most houses. The advantage if any of heating the structure which then heats the air (infrared) over heating the air which then heats the structure (convection) must be no more than marginal.
Nov 7th 2014, 12:50 pm
#27
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 6,148
Re: "Neater Heaters"
Can I suggest that
a) when you copy and paste advertising spiel you credit where you got it from and
b) You aren't going to convince anyone about the efficiency of infrared heating by quoting direct from infraredtechnologies.co.uk
I suspect that a manufacturer of convector heaters would bang on about the benefits of how his heaters heat the air and not the walls
a) when you copy and paste advertising spiel you credit where you got it from and
b) You aren't going to convince anyone about the efficiency of infrared heating by quoting direct from infraredtechnologies.co.uk
I suspect that a manufacturer of convector heaters would bang on about the benefits of how his heaters heat the air and not the walls
Nov 7th 2014, 1:35 pm
#28
FreeThinker
Joined: Nov 2009
Location: the moors and levels
Posts: 9,702
Re: "Neater Heaters"
The first link (which doesn't actually work)
is from Dimplex - a commercial supplier of many kinds of heating.It includes these passages...
Efficiency is a widely misunderstood term when it comes to electric heating. The fact is that electric energy is converted to heat with 100% efficiency at the point of use. Therefore the actual efficiency of an electric resistance heater - any electric resistance heater - is 100%. If your heater uses 1kWh of electricity, 1kW of heat will be transferred into the room for one hour. This is dictated by one of the principal laws of physics, The Law of Conservation of Energy - "Energy cannot be created or destroyed, but can only change from one form to another."
The European Commission Study of Local Room Heating products (DG Ener Lot 20) states: "Since the ‘heat generation efficiency' is always 100%. It does not allow comparing the energy performance of electric room heaters."
The UK government's standard assessment procedure (SAP) for energy rating of dwellings (SAP 2012 Version 9.92 Dec 2011) also draws no distinction between panel, convector or radiant heaters, water or oil filled radiators, fan heaters or portable electric heaters - each has an efficiency of 100% and a responsiveness of 1
The UK government's standard assessment procedure (SAP) for energy rating of dwellings (SAP 2012 Version 9.92 Dec 2011) also draws no distinction between panel, convector or radiant heaters, water or oil filled radiators, fan heaters or portable electric heaters - each has an efficiency of 100% and a responsiveness of 1
It contains the following...
Beware of inflated claims and prices
Advertisements promise that certain models of electric space heaters will save 50 percent on heating costs. Many may wonder if this and other claims are true.
Advertisements promise that certain models of electric space heaters will save 50 percent on heating costs. Many may wonder if this and other claims are true.
A watt is a watt
Some dealers are selling what is basically a 1,500-watt electric space heater for $250, $300, $400, and even more. Packaged in furniture-like wooden boxes, or wood-looking plastic, what's inside is still a 1,500-watt heater—capable of putting out the same amount of heat at the same cost as a 1,500-watt milk house heater that costs $25.
The only feature of an electric heater that affects the amount of heat the unit can generate is wattage. No matter how elaborate the cabinet that holds it, electric heating is the same. And buyers need to understand how the electric heater works or risk succumbing to a pretty package.
Some dealers are selling what is basically a 1,500-watt electric space heater for $250, $300, $400, and even more. Packaged in furniture-like wooden boxes, or wood-looking plastic, what's inside is still a 1,500-watt heater—capable of putting out the same amount of heat at the same cost as a 1,500-watt milk house heater that costs $25.
The only feature of an electric heater that affects the amount of heat the unit can generate is wattage. No matter how elaborate the cabinet that holds it, electric heating is the same. And buyers need to understand how the electric heater works or risk succumbing to a pretty package.
Depends upon the room and your requirements.
I would avoid electricity where possible. In Spain I liked bottled gas room heaters as the houses I lived in were 'well ventilated' to say the least so they gave no condensation problems.
I like a fan heater in the bathroom - because they are so quick.
I suppose if I had a room with a very high ceiling I might go for hanging bar fires (infra red!!) but I'm not keen - it makes the top of my head hot as I don't have much insulation there.
Nov 7th 2014, 1:44 pm
#29
Lost in BE Cyberspace
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Nov 7th 2014, 4:54 pm
#30
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 483
Re: "Neater Heaters"
Hmmmm. Well I've spent all afternoon googling and researching this and as an ignoarant layman i'm shocked. Apparently all this "sophisticated radiators" with ceramics and clay and whatnot are no different than the basic oil filled jobbies!!!! Apparently the only difference that accounts for using less electricity is very sophistcated or sensitive thermostats which turn the things on and off more often!!! And as they're off more often they use less electricity!!! Even I can figure that out.
So for me, i'll just continue with the oilies, and forget the charms of the snake oil salesmen.
Thank you learned forumsters for enlightening my mind, and not lightening my wallet.
So for me, i'll just continue with the oilies, and forget the charms of the snake oil salesmen.
Thank you learned forumsters for enlightening my mind, and not lightening my wallet.
