mitzipurr

What about this scenerio folks. Through no fault of your own you have bought one of the many houses in Chiclana that is illegal. Before the property can be inscribed in the land registry you must live in it for at least five years. This would mean you would be extremly lucky to sell it before that time has passed. What would be your reaction?

dougie V

christ.....sounds like a few nightmares going on down that way.... bad lawyers, property etc.. maybe u can explain some of the bad experiences and offer advice about, and even recommend good lawyers etc so that people looking down that way have some insight... maybe look at setting up a website to advise people thinking of purchasing in the area... i hate to say it but alot of people can be nieve when doing the whole property purchase thing abroad and i'm sure that advise would be appreciated

bluebell

Hi Mitzi, It sounds like a nightmare, and I'd be going mad right now, under those circumstances.

Incidentally, where exactly is Chiclana ? Is it the Costa de la Luz area ?

mitzipurr

Hi bluebell

You are right it has certainly been a nightmare for me and although I am not quite mad I certainly have experienced 11 months of stress...

Chiclana is in the Costa de la Luz (Coast of Light) near Cadiz - so you are right with your question.

We have recently been told by a Lawyer whom we visited in Cadiz that if you are going to buy a house in Chiclana then forget it and find somewhere else!! He also said it was like another country with its own rules and regulations. If you were to sell a house in this area - he also informed us - that unless you use a Chiclana based lawyer then the sale will fail.

:scared:

Mercedes

Isn't there a law society or something whereby you can complain about lawyers?

accommodation-in-spain

Although Mitzipurr has had problems buying in Chiclana can we just clarify that if you buy in a well established town of village in the area you should be OK.

Chiclana is a big town with none of these problems and Mitzipurr lives on the outskirts of the town in a place where lots of new villas are being built.

You have to be careful when looking at buying in the outskirts of the area and sure that the house is fully legal and registered before proceeding the the purchase.

It would be a good idea for Mitzipurr to give some ideas on how to avoid these pitfalls as a previous person added as it would be very useful for other people looking at buying in the area.

I have two properties in La Barrosa and have had no problems whatsoever with either of them.

Don't get me wrong, Mitzipurr is a lovely person who has had problems buying in the area but I just wanted to clarify that Chiclana is not where the problem is.

mitzipurr

I am not certain what you mean in your first paragraph about purchasing in a well established town or village. I can only presume you mean the urbanised areas - then that I can fully agree with.

Unfortunately, many people come to Chiclana with a certain budget and the majority of agents do not explain things fully. People see a nice 3 bedroom 2 bathroom bungalow at a reasonable price and just presume that the property has all the services and is legal - and anyway they think the Lawyer whom they place their trust in will look after their interests??

I am not sure I can agree with the statement that Chiclana is a big town with none of these problems. From what I have learned from reliable and trusted sources and read about in the press this is far from the case. Chiclana is estimated to have at least 8000 illegally built houses.

Mitzipurr does live on the outskirts of Chiclana but there are very few new builds here and my house is over 8 years old. She has lived in Spain over 5 years and did not realise that here you have to make sure that the house is fully legal and registered, and you have to ask the question why is someone offering you a property to buy without these securities? However, that said then surely the Lawyer should find out all this information before allowing you to pay any money, or offer at least an explanation and ask if you want to proceed should this not the case.

On all my posts I try to help by giving people advice based on my experience and what I learn from reliable and trusted sources. I will work on a post advising people of the pitfalls as you suggested.

I have today received a private post from a Spanish person whom I have asked permission to share it with you all and I am waiting for a response. He or she appears to have a lot of inside information on how in his or her words the "scam" works all I will say is that it is very revealing...

You are very fortunate to have bought properties in La Barrossa and have no problems - well done and good luck to you.

accommodation-in-spain

Hi Mitzipurr

Can't wait to see your post re advice on how to avoid the pitfalls of buying in the area, if you wouldn't mind could I add it to the new site we are building as I am sure people would find it really useful?

I am really sorry you have had so many problems. A Lawyer should look into all these things for you but it sounds like unless you ask the right questions you won't get the answers you need which isn't how it should work. We didn't use a Lawyer for any of our purchases and glad we didn't now as it sounds like they are a waste of time & money!

What I mean about Chiclana not having these problems is that Chiclana is a big town and the areas you are talking are on the outskirts of the city itself and have their own village names. I suppose what I am really trying to say is that you can't tar the whole area with the same brush. If you buy in the centre of La Barrosa, Novo Sancti Petri, Chiclana etc there is nothing like this happening.

I must admit I didn't realise that properties of 8 years old also have problems though - that is worrying. If you have lived there for 5 years can you not now register the property? If you haven't lived in that property for 5 years have you thought about renting it out for the summer months and using the money to rent in a place you will feel happier?

I hope it all works our for you Mitzipurr - I am sure it will in the end but I know you must be really worried and frustrated at the moment.

Regards
accommodation-in-spain

www.costa-luz-holiday.com - Your on-line holiday brochure to the Costa de la Luz

mp3

Hello all.
I PM'd Mitzipurr yesterday with my views on this sorry mess.I have no insider info,but the scam is not unknown and has been going on an off for over 30 years.For example,Marbella (170 Km east of Chiclana) is infamous for illegal developements.
This is my PM to Mitzipurr.Hope this helps:

Hello ,Mitzipurr.
Found this website by chance (convoluted& uninteresting story ,anyway).I’m probably not supposed to be posting here,since I’m a native Spaniard and live far away from the coast ,but I’ve read up on your nightmarish experience and couldn’t hold myself.I really feel for your troubles.Mind you,I’m no lawyer and my line of work is as far away as properties and real estate as it can gets,but still I wanted to post my views on this.Even if you find them not-so-helpful I hope they’ll give you a little perspective.Being tossed about like you’ve been is awful ,doubly so when nobody bothers to explain why.
Seems to me you’ve fallen for a very old scam .The background is as follows:
In Spain the rights to the land belong to either town halls (ayuntamientos) or counties (comunidades) . Why? Because our government system is mostly de-centralized,meaning local communities have to find their own sources of income.Land selling has been the main source,Spain having gone through an astounding building boom .As you can guess ,greenbelt or “rustic� (sorry I’m non-technical!) land sells for a song ,because it can’t be built upon.Developer land sells at prime prices ,that’s the cow town halls milk.But who says which land is developer and which rustic?The town hall itself,but since it answers to higher authorities ,there shouldn’t be a problem with it ,right?
Now for the scam.Let’s suppose that you’re a developer with no land to develop.There isn’t any for sale.You find a contact in the town hall ready to stamp a few documents for you and sell you a nice piece of land…rustic land.The trick is,you’ll pay developer land rate ,because you intend to build upon it; maybe you’re promised a building permit later,maybe not.Since Spanish laws state that the owner of a property is liable for every trouble connected to it,you only have to sell before someone realises you’re building ilegally.You build fast,you sell fast,you take the money and run.
The scam only works if the market is going thru a huge boom or bubble.In “normal� markets it’s more sensible to buy cheap land and save it till the town expands and it’s ready for more developements.
Rustic land has not (and hasn’t got permission for) utilities like phone,electricity,gas,sewers…Trouble with utilities is usually a dead giveaway of trouble with permits.Houses without utilities are classed as “unfit for habitation� and may be pulled down by the local autorities.There are two exceptions to this rule:a)if you can prove you bought your house in good faith and aren’t part of the scam ,b) if you have lived in the house for a number of years,can’t remember how many.Then the builds become legal and you’re provided with utilities.But ,when something is built legally the town hall makes provisions for utilities with the money paid by the developer.Not so when the builds started as illegal.That’s probably why your providers aren’t in a hurry to hook your phone ,gas,etc.They’re afraid they may be out of pocket.
IMO ,your best bet is the Junta de AndalucÃ*a takes this mess away from the local authorities and sorts it out by itself.Best of luck!

steve in pago

i like mitzipurr also appear to have an illegal property on the outskirts of chiclana no mains electricity,water etc. When i purchased the land my solicitor advised me not to register the property as i would save money in the long run, as my area was to be urbanized & therefore would have to pay then anyway, so saving money looks like i could be wrong & will cost me alot more than expected. Any one any views on this would love to here them
cheers steve

mitzipurr

Yes there is but its like a trade union for them all. Complaining will get you nowhere because they all stick together.

If they make a mistake they can wriggle out of it and can deny all responsibility. Its impossible to do anything about it. In my case the Lawyer I had used came up to my house after the sale and said "I am sorry I have made a mistake I should have checked things out properly"! So you must ask yourself why employ them in the first place.

I am sure Beachcomber will echo the above sentiments completely.

mitzipurr

Thank you mp3 for posting this. Hopefully it will open a lot of peoples eyes and stop or at least make them think twice before buying a property on rustic land no matter what speil the estate agent comes up with.

I am sure I can speak for the moderator on this. Your views would be a welcome addition to this forum at any time. So please do not feel that you should not be posting.

mp3

Thank you for the welcome
Re agents' spiel :I can't stress this enough:
Under Spanish law ,any existing liens,outstanding charges,etc...are the property's owner business.An all-too-frequent example:if the vendor runs up utilities' bills,then sells the house to you w/o settling them ,you will be liable for those bills.
So ,no matter what the agent promises,once you buy the house the problems are all yours to settle.You can sue the agent if you like,but it won't lift any trouble off your back,as you discovered the hard way.

bluebell

Mitzi, I agree with you totally, that the lawyer should have done the proper checks so that none of this would have happened to you.

As you probably remember, I too had bad problems with my lawyer not doing the standard checks for my house purchase & ended up with a water debt belonging to someone else !

Compared to you, however it's just paying some money, & I really feel for you. Maybe sometime in Spain, action could be taken against lawyers like you can in UK. That way they wouldn't be so likely to mess up !

mitzipurr

Hi Steve. I am very sorry that you have fallen for the seemingly Chiclana scam.

Suggest the following action to clarify the position for you one way or the other.

1. Go to Town Hall in Chiclana with your escitura. Just as you enter to your right you will see a office. Go in there show them your escitura and ask for a ticket they will give you a paper to fill out. Write your details and the house address. Pay them 6.40 and they will give you a ticket. Then take same through double glass doors. To your right you will see a window. A very helpfull man is sat there in front of a computer screen. Give him ticket and escitura. He will give you a printed copy stamped by the Ayuntamiento of the Plano de Situation. On it will be shown your plot and if you are very lucky your house as well. If the house is not shown this means that no building licence was granted. In other words the property has been built without planning permission is illegal and is probably on rustic land.


2. The next day go early to urbinismo with this paper and your escitura and go to the top floor. Its near Supersol in Chiclana town center. Get there before 9.30 because they give you a ticket and they only have so many allocated each day. You will be surrounded by builders with sheets of papers and big fat wallets! Be warned you will probably wait a long time.

When it is your turn - you just have to wait until somebody comes out of the door marked No pasar - then go into the office on the right. Try to speak with the man nearest to the windows as he has a little English. He will show you the urban plan for where your property is situated - and the colour of zone it has been allocated - fingers crossed it is not in a white, green and I think blue zone. He will give you a copy of the plan showing where your house/plot is situated in the urban plan.

You will now have a clearer view of your particular circumstances.

Do hope this has helped you in some way??

Good Luck!!