AngelaV

Here is a video from a family who have just completed the Suninder Singh route via Ireland. Kevin has diarized his journey. It is truly inspiring to watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1-v0...ature=youtu.be

AngelaV

I don't know if any of the information I am posting is useful in any way. I have become passionate about the Surinder Singh route and I hope that others experiences of taking the plunge taking this route will give others hope and possibly a solution to going home.

Here is another site with a lot of information about the Surinder Singh route. It has personal stories, advice, forms, templates and so much more:

http://britcits.blogspot.ie/

WEBlue

Angela, it's very useful, thank you! I think this thread is being read with interest by quite a few here.

Many of us know a friend or relative who may not or may not be able to meet the spouse visa requirements as they stand now. So it's very good to know that other 'normal' people are using the Singh Route successfully.

Thanks for the links too. I've passed them on.

AngelaV

Thanks WEblue, that's good to know. I'm just going to add links to sites I come across which may help, as can anyone else who would like to add to it. Heres another one:

I LOVE MY 'FOREIGN' SPOUSE: defend the rights of cross-border couples: http://www.facebook.com/groups/139807999382936/

One day we won't have to go to such extremes to keep our families together.... one hopes.

AngelaV

This is a little bit of information of how I went about exercising my EEU Freedom of Movement Treaty Rights/Surinder Singh Route. I can’t claim that all the information is correct, that it will apply to everyone, or that everyone will have the same experience. This is my experience of how I did it.

My husband is South African so he didn’t need a visa to enter Ireland. Below is a list of countries that don’t need a visa. Schedule 1 countries don’t need a visa. A schedule list can be found here -

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/SINo4...es/SINo417.pdf

If your spouse needs a visa to enter Ireland, someone on the site should be able to help you with the application process.

Preparation:

Select which country will best suit your needs. We chose Ireland as I don’t speak any other language and I have 3 kids so for us it was less disruptive.
You might want to research countries before deciding to determine cost of living, unemployment rate, rental prices etc.

I can only comment on Ireland as I didn’t consider any other country.
Useful Information Sites

There are 2 documents you need to be familiar with when taking the EEU Freedom of Movement/Surinder Singh route.

Freedom to move and live in Europe - A Guide to your rights as an EU citizen
I consider this document the “Bible” of EEU Freedom of Movement/Surinder Singh route. It explains the process in fairly easy to understand terms. It is a summary of the Directive 2004/38/EC*.

http://ec.europa.eu/justice/policies...vement_low.pdf

DIRECTIVE 2004/38/EC OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL

This document is the official directive. You should make yourself familiar with it. I would suggest you print this and make sure you have it with you when you arrive in the country you are going to exercise your rights in. Highlight sections specific to your circumstances so that if asked, you can refer to this document.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...77:0123:EN:PDF

I found the following link useful; it is a document on the Home Office website, I think it is a guideline for immigration staff confirming our rights as European citizens and family members of European citizens.

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/si...df?view=Binary

The Process:

When you have all your visas etc. sorted and ready to go, you will most likely book your flights. Be aware that most airlines will insist on return tickets even though you are going to settle in Ireland. They are not willing to accept liability on Ireland refusing entry as they will be responsible for your return flight at their expense. We couldn’t find an airline who would allow us to fly one-way.

On arrival in Ireland, you should go to the Non EEU line. When you get to the immigration desk, the officer will most likely ask why you are travelling to Ireland. My husband and I deliberated over this. He wanted to tell them that he was visiting. I disagreed as I felt we are not doing anything wrong and we are well within our rights to exercise our treaty rights. We compromised by telling the officer that we were settling and planning to start our own business in Ireland. If we were challenged with this, I was going to state that we were EEU Freedom of Movement route. This is when it is useful to know the Directive and have it available so that you can point out your rights if they are questioned.

I read somewhere before we came that the immigration officers at the airport are the gatekeepers for Ireland, they are not the ones who will ultimately decide your fate so only give them as much information as they ask to get through immigration with a 3 month stamp in your spouse’s passport.

My husband was given a 3 month stamp on his passport and we were told to report to the Garda before the 3 months were up to apply for GNIB (residency card). He advised to wait 2 months so that we had enough proof to satisfy immigration.

Here is a link to the Citizens Information site with details on how to apply for Registration of non-EEA nationals in Ireland:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en...n_ireland.html

We were then sent on our merry way.

Whilst in Ireland:

Organize to have some kind of invoice/confirmation sent to your address for both of you to assist you with opening accounts, registering PPS etc

Open bank account – in both names if possible
Register for your PPS number as soon as possible
Register GNIB or send EU1 to register presence in Ireland within 3 months

Proof of Exercising Your Freedom of Movement Rights:

You will have to make sure you prove everything to satisfy the UKBE that you have exercised your rights by making sure that you create a documented life.

Here’s a few tips:

• Make sure you put your rental lease in both your names
• Ask the landlord when he/she will register the rental (it’s law in Ireland). You will need confirmation of this at a later date
• Make sure you take photographs of you both together often to confirm that you lived together in Ireland
• You cannot do anything in Ireland without a proof of address. You need to organise this as soon as you have an address as you will need this to open a bank account and get a PPS number
• The proof of address must be something that has been mailed to you at your address
• You should also arrange for a utility account to be put in both names e.g. gas or electricity – this helps provide proof at a later stage of living together
• Apply for a PPS number as soon as possible. As we registered in Navan, we had to wait 5 weeks just to get an appointment with the social welfare office. However, you get your number within a few days in Dublin


Some Facts:

• You can work without a PPS number but will pay emergency tax
• You need to work at least 10 hours for 12 weeks. There is some debate that it might be 5.5 or 12 hours so to be safe, it is suggested a minimum of 12.
• There are people who have moved to the UK after 13 weeks so it is possible.
• Pre-school children are entitled to 1 year in pre-school free of charge
• Applying for EU1 is registering your presence
• Popular sites for rentals is www.daft.ie, www.rent.ie, www.gumtree.ie,




Our Start-Up Costs:

This is very dependent on your own situation. Our costs were very high but we are a family of 5 with a special needs daughter and starting our own internet based business so our costs are much higher than most. We also needed a car. Anyway, here are the costs for my set up costs excluding purchase of car and household items:

10 Days in hotel: 890.00
10 Days car hire 450.00
Internet 319.00 – 45.00 per month thereafter
Sky 35.00 per month
6 Months pre-paid Refuse Collection 156.00
Car Tax (6 months) 250.00
Gas Deposit 200.00
Car Insurance Deposit 140.00 – 82.00 per month thereafter
Rental Deposit 800.00
1st month rent 800.00
We worked out that our monthly living costs will be +/- 2500 euros per month.

We had only budgeted for 2000 set up costs so you can imagine the effect doubling that budget had on us! We also spent more than double our budget on a car as the cars within our budget would be lucky if they left their parking space! Still bought a piece of rubbish though, has cost us a fortune since we bought it.

Most people’s expenses will be much lower than ours. A few people have advised to have 2500 euros savings when arriving in Ireland to tide you by until you start working if you are doing it on a tight budget i.e. staying in hostel etc.

Mistakes I Made:

Don’t arrive at the weekend. Dublin is busy, hotels are expensive and estate agents don’t work over the weekend so we wasted 2 precious house hunting days.

We arrived on the 1st day of the school holidays on a Friday and only looked for a hotel a couple of nights before we left. It seemed that Ireland as a whole was really busy. I spent 2 days calling B&Bs to no avail so we were forced to book a more expensive hotel.

If you need to hire a car, don’t wait until arrival at Dublin. We could have paid half the price for car hire if we had pre-booked it.

Make sure the area you live in has internet access or ability to connect easily
We trusted the landlord that it is easy to have internet installed and that Sky/UPS would be the best bet. When we moved in, we found out that UPS doesn’t cover the area and Sky could only provide TV, not internet/phone. We were forced to go to Ripple.com as they cover the area …. Stay away from them, their service is shocking and they are VERY expensive. Our business is reliant on having internet so had no choice. Paid a whopping 300 euros installation fees!

Beware of estate agents telling you that you can get accommodation last minute. As you can see below, I have an issue with estate agents in Ireland!
We phoned a few estate agents 3 months before we moved over to ask about renting. We were told that due to the recession, there are a huge number of houses on the rental market and our budget of 600 euros would be more than enough. We registered and called them as requested a couple of weeks before we left. Every one of the agents we had made arrangements with back tracked. They all of a sudden had no properties available.

When we arrived in Ireland, we spent the weekend driving around looking at houses advertised on Daft so that we could shortlist the houses we were interested in. We called the relevant agents on the Monday to make appointments. They seemed fine on the phone (I have a Scottish accent) but when we met them at the house, they started to come up with every excuse under the sun that we couldn’t have the house or shouldn’t take it. We offered to pay deposits but were told that the person actually dealing with it wasn’t in (2 agents did this). Thereafter, they did not return calls or e-mails. Other agents just didn’t follow up on our request. Our impression was that non-nationals are not welcome although it could be a number of reasons i.e. South African husband, special needs child, having three children. Incidentally, one of the houses we looked at was a huge 4 bedroom house, we were told when she met us that the owner actually preferred a couple with no children to rent even though we told her we had 3 children on the phone!

We ended up staying in a hotel much longer than we budgeted for and had to increase our monthly rental budget by 200 euros.

AngelaV

Okay, I seem to have opened a can of worms here.

May I ask that if you are going to join this group, please do not come on for the sole purpose of trying to gather information to get around the rules of the Surinder Singh route by falsifying evidence. The rules in taking this route are very stringent and you need to ask yourself if you will be able to provide the UKBA evidence at the end of the process. If you have to lie or falsify documentation to get around the rules, this route is not for you.

I'm going to cover a couple of the situations that are coming up:

If you want to bring extended family, you have to show evidence that the family members are dependant on you by means of showing evidence of sharing household, supporting household with bank statements as proof etc.

You cannot invent your residence in member state by asking someone to post documentation from the member state to you in your country of residence. You must live and work with your spouse/partner in the member state.

The ss route is not the "easy option", it is hard work, stressful and expensive. It would be an absolute waste to go through all of this to be refused at the end by submitting false information.

Sorry for this post but as I shared this group on this forum, I feel a responsibility to the members of the group who have spent 100s, even 1000s of hours researching this route and spending hours advising and helping those who are just starting out on this journey. Everyone is very supportive and patient and will keep giving the same advice day in, day out with pleasure but that patience does wane when we are being asked how to bend the rules to make it fit.

not2old

Angela, post#20 is an eye opener,very well done & informative as is the whole thread.

On the running costs (sort of off the SS topic slightly) and maybe a separate thread for this type of info on the Ireland thread.

Have you lowered your monthly running costs any as well as what are you finding the most expensive fixed costs to be ... rent, utilities, Sky/phone/internet etc?

On real estate agents do you have any further advice on anyone moving to Ireland the best way to secure a rental - would it be before they arrive or after?

AngelaV

Hi there, thanks for your feedback.

Let me give you details of our monthly costs:

Sky - 35e pm (45e if you are in an area with cables for internet)
Ripple - 45e pm for internet & phone, 70gig (we don't have cables in the area
Rent - Depends on where you live but a room in Dublin is around 600e per month. We have a 3 bedroom house close to Balbriggan for 785e pm.
Gas - 75e pm (I think this is too low but we will see when we do the reading)
Electricity - Don't know yet
Car insurance - 80e pm

You will need to bear in mind that most institutions and landlords will want a 1 year contract which is a pain. We managed to get a 6 month lease.

We are budgeting on around 2300e per month including food for a family of 5.

Food is quite expensive here but there is a Lidl and Aldi in most towns. I tend to go to Tescos late afternoon and buy from the reduced section and freeze or buy specials when they are on to keep costs down. To give you an idea, 2lt milk is 1.60, bread is 89c for the cheaper bread but most breads are around 1.50 - 2.00e! Deisel is 1.50e p/l.


We had a bad experience with estate agents. They don't want to rent before you arrive. They are very strict about checking references and it seems to take ages, everything works at a snails pace here. If I was to do it all over again, I would target private landlords with a max. 6 month let and set up appointments before we arrive. It was a little different for us, we had to accommodate our children so it was important that we saw the street, area etc. so we had to wait until we saw the property. Daft is probably the best site for properties.

When I started this, I really couldn't find anyone who had done this route or actually doing it so I really did it on my own which is why I am laying it out there. Hopefully my mistakes and successes will give others the courage to go home. Let me know if I can help with any further information, my life has become an open book .... lol!

not2old

from the other thread where I posted this - sorry for the duplicate, but thought it might be OK to ask it here also.

forgive me if this has already been answered somewhere Angela - if you could provide a short point by point response - after the stamp 4 certificate is in the non EU spouses passport, how quickly/soon can that spouse travel to the UK and enter & be given an indefinite leave to remain or whatever its called going the SS route?

And on arrival in the UK, what likely if any questions, rejections etc will the UKBA officer likely do?

Then on the basis the spouse gets a stamp/visa etc (what kind is it?) can they then get a NI number without a hassle, apply for what locals refer to as social benefits without habitual residency ... child allowance, job seekers allowance, housing benefits etc?

All that done, at what point in time (the timeline) can the spouse become a UK citizen?

I was thinking - if its doable in your personal situation, wouldn't it be better in some cases to stay in Ireland for 5 years and have the spouse naturalized then get the Irish passport?

AngelaV

This is also a duplicate answer but for continuity, I have copied the answer here too:

Q - after the stamp 4 certificate is in the non EU spouses passport, how quickly/soon can that spouse travel to the UK and enter & be given an indefinite leave to remain or whatever its called going the SS route?

A - There is not set time stated but I know some people have left the European country they were exercising their treaty rights after 3 months.

Q - And on arrival in the UK, what likely if any questions, rejections etc will the UKBA officer likely do?

A- Before going to the UK, you would apply for a VAF5 visa - http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/si...visas/vaf5.pdf

A - When you get to the UK, you will apply for a EEA2 which will give you a 5 year temporary residency visa - http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/si.../eea/eea21.pdf This application process takes 6 months. You can apply for permanent residency after 5 years

Q - Then on the basis the spouse gets a stamp/visa etc (what kind is it?) can they then get a NI number without a hassle, apply for what locals refer to as social benefits without habitual residency ... child allowance, job seekers allowance, housing benefits etc?

Q - Then on the basis the spouse gets a stamp/visa etc (what kind is it?) can they then get a NI number without a hassle, apply for what locals refer to

A - Your spouse will apply for a NI number, it takes a little time but it's not a problem. Incidentally, if your spouse has worked in the UK previously, he/she will keep the NI number issued previously as they are lifelong numbers. My husband worked in the UK 13 years ago and got his NI number then (one less stress!)

A - Your spouse will have access to all benefits you will have access to, be able to work and no financial restrictions will be applied to your visa application. Essentially, if you are successful and follow the rules of the directive, your spouse will be classed as a member of British society on arrival.

Q- I was thinking - if its doable in your personal situation, wouldn't it be better in some cases to stay in Ireland for 5 years and have the spouse naturalized then get the Irish passport?

A - For us, we are moving back to the UK to be close to family. As much as I love Ireland, I would like by kids to grow up close to my family.

nun

It's heartening to know that there is a way around the evil and unjust way the UK immigration laws treat UK citizens married to non EU spouses. I'm glad that you struck a blow for common sense and I hope that many more families in a similar situation will follow your excellent advice.

AngelaV

Here is another story of someone also going the Surnder Singh route in Ireland, she very kindly allowed me to share her story with you:

Hi everyone,

I thought I would jump on the bandwagon and detail my experiences with moving to Dublin, Ireland in order to Exercise my Treaty Rights with my Fijian husband.

This is a basic list of how we did things, further details below:

1. Decided on Dublin, checked visa requirements(both Ireland and transit countries), booked flights, arrived in Dublin!

2. Get somewhere to live

3. Apply for PPS number (both of us)

4. Open a joint bank account

5. Find a job

6. Register with immigration using the EU1 form within 90 days of arriving in Ireland

7. Wait for reply from immigration then go to GNIB to get Stamp 4 (for non-EU spouse to work)

I will update the rest when we do it!

Before we left
Luckily Fijians do not require a visa to enter Ireland, so I have no information on applying for entry visas. We had two weeks between deciding to go and our flights, so we just gave away everything we owned (not much), packed our bags and said goodbye to the sun and palm trees. We also organised accommodation (see below).

We booked our flights with STA Travel, and they were not too expensive. We booked one way which was a HUGE mistake. We arrived at the airport, all packed and ready to go. Got to the check in counter and they asked us for evidence of a return flight. I told them we were not coming back, but the computer screen said that ALL Fijians MUST have a return flight booked... It didn't matter what documentation I showed them so we had to book a return flight from Dublin to Fiji which was hugely expensive. If you also have to do this, make sure the flight is fully refundable and just refund it when you get to Ireland. Or just book a return flight and save yourself some airport hassle! Do not listen to anyone who tells you to just turn up as you are allowed to go under EU law... check with the airline first.

Transiting through Australia and Dubai to Ireland
Transiting was fine, I would advise to check how long your transit times are as you may need a visa to leave the airport to get to a hotel (check if your airline can arrange this or not). There is a fab website: http://www.sleepinginairports.net/ should you want to save money on the cost of a hotel and feel like doing this

Arriving in Dublin – the border
We arrived and were told that we could not queue together in the EU line (which we are actually allowed to do), but we were tired and did what we were told and went to the non-EU line. This line was very slow but we eventually got there. We have our passports, marriage certificate, return ticket and gave it all to the fairly grumpy border guard. He asked why we were here, I told him I was here to work and my husband was staying with me. He told my husband that he MUST leave the country in three months no matter what happened. This is obviously not the case and I just smiled and let him stamp the passport... We were in Dublin!

Dublin airport has Wifi which is handy if you haven't booked anywhere to stay. We used a taxi to get into the city centre which cost about 25Euros, but you can an airport bus which is 6euros each one way I believe. I suppose it depends where you are going, but the taxi was good for us as the office we needed to get to was far.

Accommodation
We were very lucky with organising accommodation in Dublin before we left. I had a list of hostels to stay in, but saw that one of the group members was heading back to the UK and giving up their flat. So we emailed to say that we would take it, and she put us in touch with the landlord (we also took her bikes which was handy). I will certainly advertise this place on the group when we leave as it was such as relief!

The best website for accommodation is http://www.daft.ie and I would not recommend Gumtree or Craigslist unless you are very confident in the person you are dealing with. We are living in a studio flat in Rathmines, Dublin 6 which is a very good location, and costs 560euros a month.

PPS Number
Once you have evidence of an address (we used tenancy agreement), go over to the PPSN office to apply for your number. BOTH of you will be able to apply so bring both passports, the address confirmation, and a pen is useful! Queue at reception (get there early i.e. 9.30am), give in your docs, fill in the form, wait for your number to be called, have your photo and signature taken, make small talk with the nice person behind the glass, and off you go! They send you the PPS number in five days and after that you get a little card with your picture on too (or you can go and collect it the next day, but we didn't need it that quickly).

Here's the info: http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/PPSN.aspx
Here's the address and map: http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/offic...ellstreet.aspx
PPSN FAQs: http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Perso...tly-Asked.aspx

Bank Account
After you have the letter from the PPSN people, you can use it as proof of address to open a bank account. We opened one with Bank of Ireland as they are just around the corner. There is also AIB, Ulster Bank etc, just choose one nearest to your house. We needed our passports and the PPSN letter and filled in a simple form. Make sure you get a joint account as this will help with documenting your stay together in Ireland. I've now set up the Direct Debit for the rent and electricity which is great, and transferred some cash over from my UK bank account for which they charged a fee of around 10 UK Pounds (Halifax Bank).

Finding a job
Now, I am still working on this as apparently August is a quiet month in the world of Irish job seeking! I am told that things pick up in September/October and again in January/February. Job sites I have found useful are as follows:

http://jobs.donedeal.ie New but has some jobs not found on the others.
Http://www.jobs.ie The best one in my opinion, and easy to search
http://www.indeed.ie Second best, with loads of jobs
Http://www.recruitireland.ie
http://www.findajob.ie
http://irishjobs.ie
http://www.monster.ie
http://www.gumtree.ie
http://www.activelink.ie this one is for the not-for-profit sector
http://jobsireland.ie/ This is the welfare job site, has some good ones but look out for the internships for people on social welfare.

Also, register with recruitment agencies. I have only registered recently, so do not know how much work they will give, but others in the group are using agencies and getting some work. Might be worth registering the week you arrive just in case something comes up (and you can work without a PPS number, you will just get emergency taxed). I would check the recruitment sites for agencies that seem to have a lot of jobs, and register with them.

When you get a job fill this in: www.revenue.ie/forms/form12a.pdf and send it off. They will send you a letter back that you need to send to immigration as part of the EU1 form documentation (see below).

Transport
We have been mostly walking around or using the bikes as nothing seems to be too far away! We have used the DART train to go down to the coast, and the LUAS tram line. The bus system is great and the dublinbus.ie website is very handy for the Route Planner and checking how much your journey will cost. I am thinking of getting a bus pass when I start work, so will update about that as and when.

Utilities, Phone and Internet
For mobile phones we are using Tesco Mobile, which has free calls to other Tesco mobiles and good international rates. I just happened to be in Tesco when I needed a SIM, there is little other reason to choose them. Other people get Lyca mobile which has a similar free call deal, and also to Lyca mobile users in the Uk.

There are no water costs in Ireland (yet) so don't worry about that. Our flat only has electricity and we signed up with Electric Ireland and they sent us a Direct Debit to fill in when we had a bank account sorted.

For internet, the last tenant had UPC which has a years contract and a hefty cancellation fee to cut it off early. We are using a Vodafone USB dongle that you plug in and use on a Pay-As-You-Go basis with no cancellation fees. They have this in Carphone Warehouse.

My advice for those who are unsure how long they will be here, or know they are leaving early, is to ask how to cancel and whether there is a notice period/fee to do so. Do this before signing up for ANYTHING.

Registering with Immigration – within three months
To register with immigration you will need to send them the EU1 form and supporting documentation. That is all, nothing else.

Here's the info: http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages...reaty%20Rights
Here's the EU1 form itself: http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Form%...Form%20EU1.pdf

Section 4 lists all the documents you need to provide. Do not worry if you don't yet have all of them – just send everything you have (originals) by registered post, and put in a letter saying that you don't currently have ….....(name the documents) and that you will send them by registered post when you have them. They'll just write back requesting those documents. It asks for a P45 but just send the letter you get from the Tax Form 12a.

Eventually, they will send you a letter confirming that they have your documents, and that your non-EU husband/wife can go to the GNIB office to get the Stamp 4 in their passport allowing them to work!

After all this..... goodness knows, I will have to update when I get to that

We will have a Guinness or two to wish you luck on your journey, and give us a message if you want to meet up when you get here (or if you are already here!).

AngelaV

Another fact for anyone worried, you can use the surrender singh route if your visa has previously been refused, overstayed or been deported. As long as you are able to follow the rules of the directive, it's a fresh start. You cannot be refused on past applications/refusals.

AngelaV

BritCits is Defending the rights of international families and Documenting the plight of divided families. Steven's website has a massive amount of information pertaining to the Freedom of Movement/Surinder Singh route including useful documents, court rulings, personal stories. It is definitely worth visiting.

Free movement to Ireland

This is one for those who are looking at exercising their European free movement rights with their families, to Ireland. A useful nugget worth knowing about, again supporting the rights of European citizens - and their families - to free movement.

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http...ml&h=wAQHLiLD5

richard2013

greetings angela

i will have to find employment in ceuta /meliliya. these are 2 cities which belong to spain ,located in morroco. i learned about the ss route today and am unable to find out about how many hours of work i would have to do in either ceuta/meliliyah. can you help me on this, thanks