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any advice in getting 4yr old into a good school

any advice in getting 4yr old into a good school

Old Oct 14th 2008, 5:11 pm
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Question trying to get 4yr old into a UK school for Sept09 but not moving back till jul09

Hi there
I am new to this list but have been reading a lot of the posts and found them really useful.
DH and I have been in NY for 12 years and are moving next summer back to Uk( somewhere commutable to London, I know that is vague)
I have to start looking into areas and schools as my son will need to be in a school in Sept and I just don't know where to start?!!!!!
As we don't have jobs yet or know where we will live, I don't know how to start looking at good areas with good schools and how do I go about registering into the school system? it is so daunting that any advice from anyone who has done it would be well received.
it is a little like the chicken and egg syndrome, what comes first the school or the job. I am guessing that will work in London and all our families are south, Sussex, surrey, so I think we would like to be around there, and preferably in a small town or village.

oh so many questions and confusions, any help would be great or just to chat to anyone who has done this recently.
many many thanks for reading

Last edited by Curiousred; Oct 14th 2008 at 5:25 pm. Reason: wanted to claify the title
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Old Oct 14th 2008, 9:34 pm
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Default Re: any advice in getting 4yr old into a good school

Hi,

I'm in the same situation and we've only been out of the country since the beginning of the year. I think a lot depends on how old your son will be when we return and whether he will be in nursery or reception. This depends on the area in which you will be living!

I think it is probably easier to get the job first so that you can choose where you are going to be living. You no longer get automatic entry to a school in the catchment area. But once you no where you are living you can contact the local education authority and find out their admissions procedure.

In my situation we are initially going back to NE Derbyshire and my son will start school the January after his 5th birthday so I need to fill in the forms from authority for this date. However the school has an attached pre-school/nursery and to gain entry to this I have to contact the school. I actually contacted them before we left the country to let them know we were going to be away for a yea but wanted a place when we got back so hopefully we will have a place in January.

Hopefully this will make some kind of sense to you.

Karen
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Old Oct 14th 2008, 9:36 pm
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Default Re: any advice in getting 4yr old into a good school

P.S. If you look on www.netmums.com there is a forum dedicated to education where you might get more advice.
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Old Oct 15th 2008, 1:41 pm
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Default Re: any advice in getting 4yr old into a good school

Originally Posted by stmatt
Hi,

I'm in the same situation and we've only been out of the country since the beginning of the year. I think a lot depends on how old your son will be when we return and whether he will be in nursery or reception. This depends on the area in which you will be living!

I think it is probably easier to get the job first so that you can choose where you are going to be living. You no longer get automatic entry to a school in the catchment area. But once you no where you are living you can contact the local education authority and find out their admissions procedure.

In my situation we are initially going back to NE Derbyshire and my son will start school the January after his 5th birthday so I need to fill in the forms from authority for this date. However the school has an attached pre-school/nursery and to gain entry to this I have to contact the school. I actually contacted them before we left the country to let them know we were going to be away for a yea but wanted a place when we got back so hopefully we will have a place in January.

Hopefully this will make some kind of sense to you.

Karen
thanks so much for your help, I was under the impression that I would have to get him into a school well in advance. we are not planning to move back until July 08 and he will need to go into reception in Sept I think, as he will be 5 in Oct. if I wait until I get a job to find a school, then we won't know that until the summer, is that too late to get him into a school for Sept??

thanks for all your help
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Old Oct 15th 2008, 2:49 pm
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Default Re: any advice in getting 4yr old into a good school

Hi Curiousred,

Before leaving the UK last year I was responsible for overseeing school admissions in several areas of the south of England and therefore know the system and the law inside out. It's a huge area and how admissions are done vary from area to area. Therefore it's very difficult for me to explain how it all works, without writing page after page for you.

It's probably best that I try to answer you specific questions based on one particular area, otherwise our heads will explode with info overload. For example, Surrey County Council are the Local Education Authority (LEA) for the whole of Surrey county. If you moved to Berkshire then the local town councils act as the LEA as there is no county council.

That's the background, here are the answers. (I hope) Wherever you move to your LEA are required by law to provide a school place for your child. So whether you apply in January or on 31 August is irrelevant. If your child is 5 they MUST educate that child. I have never known a LEA to fail to do this because the consequences would be unthinkable, central government would have them hung, drawn and quatered. So don't worry, whever you end up, your child will get to go to school.

Here's the downside. The law does not say which school within the LEA the LEA have to educate your child at. This is depends on the Published Admission Policy (PAP) of the LEA. And to confuse things further some schools within an LEA area have a seperate policy such as Catholic schools, who comply with the diosese PAP or fundholding schools who write their own.

Here I'll deal with ones fully under LEA control, using as Surrey as an example, at primary level they are the majority.

The normal process for Surrey LEA is that if you want a place for September next year you apply between 1 September 2008 and 24 October 2008. Once all the applications are in, they allocate places according to the rules set out in the PAP. Parents are allowed to express a preference to which school they would like and if too many want the same school then the PAP will have criteria which are used to give priorty to some over others. Things like catchment area, siblings already there, strong connections etc. If you do not express a preference then the LEA will allocate your child a place AFTER they have dealt with all the ones who have, on the basis that you are happy for your child to go to any of their schools (even the one at the other end of the county).

You can still apply after 24th but then the rules are different. You contact the LEA to find out which schools have places available and then choose one of them. Unfortunately you cannot choose your local school if that school is full following the central allocation detailed above. Things like catchment area only apply when the central allocation is done. You have the right to appeal but recent changes to the law regarding class sizes at key stage one make this pretty pointless.

As far as choosing a school in your area goes there are various tools you can employ. You can talk to the locals and find out what the reputations are. You can look at the league tables which now rate all schools in the UK. Here are the ones for primary schools in Surrey, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/h...s/html/936.stm or in my opinion the best way is to go and visit and see what it feels like. I've sat through hundreds of appeals where parents are desperately trying to get their child into a school high in the league tables that I would never send my child to. And I've seen others which parents refuse to send their kids to because they come low in the tables but where the atmosphere is fantastic and the children may not do quite so well academically but win hands down in terms of happiness.

I'm sure your brain is hurting now, I know mine is. Shout if you have any other questions, I'm usually lurking around here somewhere.
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Old Oct 15th 2008, 3:09 pm
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Default Re: any advice in getting 4yr old into a good school

Sorry I forgot to say that you are allowed to apply to schools in other LEAs if you so wish. An important fact if you end up living near the border of 2 LEAs.
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Old Oct 15th 2008, 9:12 pm
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Default Re: any advice in getting 4yr old into a good school

Hi Celtic Princess,

What did you do with children who move into the area after the deadline? These new policies worry me a bit. My husband is going back to the UK to finish his training but then has to look for another job. We could end up anywhere in the UK and know we are unlikely to stay in the area we're going back to in January. Will we really be expected to travel long distances to get to a school. I'm one of these people who grew up in a small village and attended all the local schools and really want this for my child. I don't want to have to do the school run by car and I've head of so many people who end up home-schooling for this reason.

Karen
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Old Oct 15th 2008, 10:08 pm
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Default Re: any advice in getting 4yr old into a good school

Originally Posted by Celtic Princess
I've sat through hundreds of appeals where parents are desperately trying to get their child into a school high in the league tables that I would never send my child to. And I've seen others which parents refuse to send their kids to because they come low in the tables but where the atmosphere is fantastic and the children may not do quite so well academically but win hands down in terms of happiness.

.
Ain't that the truth !! Academics over everything else. I don't know what Celtic Princess thinks, but in Surrey - I'd say you'd be hard pushed to find a really, really bad school ! Literally, only a handful. I appreciate that's a sweeping statement - but there is very little between them all - and statistics only tell you so much and once you can narrow down an area or a town, go and visit a few. We were previously in a primary school that was lovely and did pretty well on tables, but it wouldn't have bothered me if it came higher or lower - we were happy there - we have other friends who love their kid's schools, and some did better and some were lower on tables. It's the kids and the parents who have the biggest influence on giving the teachers the support. Just because a school is in a rougher area does not always mean that the school is bad. Sometimes - but not always!

Good luck
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Old Oct 16th 2008, 11:20 am
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Default Re: any advice in getting 4yr old into a good school

Originally Posted by stmatt
Hi Celtic Princess,

What did you do with children who move into the area after the deadline? These new policies worry me a bit. My husband is going back to the UK to finish his training but then has to look for another job. We could end up anywhere in the UK and know we are unlikely to stay in the area we're going back to in January. Will we really be expected to travel long distances to get to a school. I'm one of these people who grew up in a small village and attended all the local schools and really want this for my child. I don't want to have to do the school run by car and I've head of so many people who end up home-schooling for this reason.

Karen
It depends really on where you live and the schools in your area. All schools have what is called a Planned Admission Number (PAN). This is the maximum number the state has calculated, using some highly complex calculations, that the school can take in any given year. Many schools never reach that number. The village school I attended only ever had half the number of children it could have taken. There were just not enough kids in the village. If the school has not reached it PAN in your child's year group then they have to give you the place. They can only refuse if your child has been permanently excluded (that's expelled to you and me) from another school. If they have only one space and 2 children want it, then the apply the same criteria as in the PAP. They cannot make their own minds up, that's against the law.

If you live in a town with several primary schools relatively close, it's highly unlikely that they will all be full. I lived in Reading, Berkshire and in my area of town there were about 10 primary schools, all more or less the same standard. Three were always full and the others always had places. I took my daughter out of the best performing one because she was unhappy and placed her in an average one and she blossomed. It was the best thing I did.

Also bear in mind that if the worst case senario arises and the only place is some distance away (I can't remember the exact distance, I think it depends on the age of the child) the LEA has to pay for the transport, usually a school taxi where younger children are involved.

Last edited by Celtic Princess; Oct 16th 2008 at 11:28 am.
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Old Oct 16th 2008, 11:23 am
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Default Re: any advice in getting 4yr old into a good school

Originally Posted by ann m
Ain't that the truth !! Academics over everything else. I don't know what Celtic Princess thinks, but in Surrey - I'd say you'd be hard pushed to find a really, really bad school ! Literally, only a handful. I appreciate that's a sweeping statement - but there is very little between them all - and statistics only tell you so much and once you can narrow down an area or a town, go and visit a few. We were previously in a primary school that was lovely and did pretty well on tables, but it wouldn't have bothered me if it came higher or lower - we were happy there - we have other friends who love their kid's schools, and some did better and some were lower on tables. It's the kids and the parents who have the biggest influence on giving the teachers the support. Just because a school is in a rougher area does not always mean that the school is bad. Sometimes - but not always!

Good luck
Absolutely. Usually schools that are struggling are schools in areas where parents and kids don't care. And I think these are few and far between, contrary to what the media keeps telling everyone.
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Old Oct 16th 2008, 6:38 pm
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Default Re: any advice in getting 4yr old into a good school

Thank you so much for all your help, this is really helpful and has put my mind at rest. At least I know that my son will definately get into a school and that the majority of school in Surrey are good. I will probably go visit a few at Christmas and during a trip back in April
thanks again
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Old Oct 17th 2008, 9:09 am
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Default Re: any advice in getting 4yr old into a good school

Originally Posted by Curiousred
Thank you so much for all your help, this is really helpful and has put my mind at rest. At least I know that my son will definately get into a school and that the majority of school in Surrey are good. I will probably go visit a few at Christmas and during a trip back in April
thanks again
Hi We returned to nrth Linc's in June, after being away for 14 mths. We wanted our kids to go to the school they would of attended, before we left.

The school yr in which my twins would go in, at the school we wanted was full. We tried to get them on the list before we arrived back in the Uk and they would not allow this........they said we had to be in the country. When we arrived back, we moved straight away to live close to the school in question and still they would not let my kids go.

They offered us places in 2 other schools, both of which are in two of the roughest areas and both had very bad reputations. One school was about 8 miles away the other 11 miles..........I refused to allow my kids to go to either........So it was taken to an appeal, which i was worried about .

I need not have worried at all, as in our case, the appeal was thrown out the door after the first half. on the grounds that although the school yr in question was full, the school its self was'nt, it had around 20 spare places in all.
The people on the appeal also objected to, my kids having to travel approx 20 miles aday to and from school, even tho they would get free transport.
Hope this helps a little..........
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Old Oct 17th 2008, 9:58 am
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Default Re: any advice in getting 4yr old into a good school

The appeals process helps many children in ridiculous situations like yours but unfortunately it would not help so much with a child starting school for the first time and I'll explain why.

Normally the appeals process is two fold. Although all circumstances and details are heard in one go, the appeals panel make their decision in two stages. The first stage is the administrative stage. Remember I said that if they had space they cannot refuse to accept a child? And they have to follow the PAP for that particular LEA when allocating spaces? The appeals panel have to decide:

1. Have they followed the PAP correctly.
2. Is the school full.

And most importantly (the decider in your case)

3. Will the admittance of the child appealing for a place cause "prejudice" to the children already there. Which means will it have a negative effect on the existing pupils education.

If the answer to those questions is no, then you win your appeal automatically, regardless of your personal circumstances. If the answer is yes then it goes to the next stage. The appeals panel have to decide whether your personal circumstances outweigh the prejudice caused by allowing the appeal.

The problem arises following fairly recent changes in the law regarding class sizes at key stage one (the first 2 years methinks). The government brought in a law saying that these classes are not allowed to go over 30. If this is part of the LEAs case, that your child will be number 31. The appeals panel can only decide if this is right, regardless of what is happening in the rest of the school, and if it is you lose. The only exception being that you didn't get a place because they failed to allocate places according to the PAP, a place you would have had if they had done it properly.

But we're talking about Surrey here, I'm not sure if there are any really rough areas.
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Old Oct 17th 2008, 10:40 am
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Default Re: any advice in getting 4yr old into a good school

My two were going into their second yr seniors. And the 2 schools i mentioned that were offered, were the next nearest with places.

The panel did in my case make a big thing on the fact my kids would have to travel around 100 miles aweek, to attend either of the nearest schools offered. And it was quite clear the panel didn't approve of that ( Thankfully).

I carn't find the letter that had the yr allocation figures on for this school , but they were 1 short of the full allocation and now they are 1 over.

I wasn't disagreeing with anything you said, in fact i was in total agreement.
Just thought as we have just had to do this, it might be worth saying how it went for us.
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Old Oct 17th 2008, 2:59 pm
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Default Re: any advice in getting 4yr old into a good school

I knew you weren't, don't worry. That's the whole point of the appeals process, to act the voice of common sense over rules. Sometimes a school or LEA wants the appeal to find in favour of the parents because they agree with the parents but they are not allowed to say so or to make the decision themselves, only the appeals panel can do it. And although it is the first time the appeals panel have met the parents, they will usually know the LEA rep fairly well and trust me, we KNOW when they mean what they say and when they are just going through the motions.

We have a similar and regular occurance in my area. Right on the edge of Reading is an area of town that falls under Newbury, about 15 miles away, not Reading. The secondary schools there are all over subscribed. And because they live in the Newbury LEA unsuccessful applicants are then allocated spaces in schools in Newbury. With no direct transport links, the children would have to leave home at 5.30 (the earliest bus) and wouldn't get home till midnight. Who in their right mind wouldn't overturn that decision?
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