[g_is_for_canada]

Hi,

If you're landing soon or just arrived, and don't have a car sorted out, you might want to consider some options other than buying a car shortly after arrival.

But first, some things to consider when you do buy a car:

1. Cars are a bit cheaper in general to purchase new, but used cars are quite expensive, and have tax added to them at the same rate as new cars, even if bought privately. Buying through a main dealer gives little assurance, as not all will be trade ins. They probably go to auction and buy any old rubbish they can sell. That's also why many used cars have no provided warranty.

2. Gas/Petrol is about half British price, although fuel economy is lower. Cars tend to have larger engines even though their performance isn't noticeably better.

3. Insurance is 5x - 10x more money, especially as the maximum no claims discount is 40% in BC, not 65% like in Britain

4. There's no MoT equivalent, and you consequently get real piles of crap being driven about. Just make sure you don't buy one as skills in covering up real nightmare vehicles are more widespread than skills in taking care of vehicles.

5. Salesmen are absolute nightmares. They just don't get it that you want to browse, and the nano second you look twice at a car they won't stop until you've bought it. I'm not one that easily bullied by salesmen, but my experience in Canada is really uncomfortable.

6. You're probably unaware of a majority of cars from which you'll get to choose. You really need time to get familiar with the brands, but also you need to know what car will suit the life you may not have started living, particularly if you just recently arrived.

7. Negotiate on the price aggressively if you do find one you like. Get a mechanical report done by a main dealer if you can, unless buying from a main dealer. They'll always say to you "if you want cheaper cars, we have cheaper cars" but that's part of the psychology behind car sales. You can come back and play exactly the same game, "I'm only interested in this vehicle, and the maximum I can go to is $xxxxx including any taxes and charges." You don't have to be offensive to them, but just put a fact to them in black and white. They can't tell you you CAN afford this, and by putting an offer to them you're giving them an option to make some commission.

For example you might add "Look, I realise that someone may pay the full price, but I'd like to put an offer to you and if you decide to accept it you can call me on this number." Now they WILL try every trick in the book like "That's below what we paid for it." But keep in mind that, whether or not this is true (almost certainly NOT), that this isn't the issue. It's a trick to force you to up your offer on the assumption that nobody sells something for less than they paid. Stay focused on the issue which is that this is how much you are offering and the car remains unsold.

You can walk away although they probably won't let you leave without agreeing to it, but this gives you an excuse to leave without a bad feeling and you've left them something they didn't have when you arrived, which is an offer. Obviously don't do this unless you're prepared to honour the offer, or without making it clearly subject to certain conditions.

By the way, the other trick they'll want to try is to get you to put a deposit down for a vehicle that you're interested in. Again this is psychological. They'll probably say it's fully refundable if you change your mind, but you have to ask yourself what's the benefit to them of getting a deposit then? Well they know that it will either be impossible or very difficult to get your money back. Also they know that psychologically, when you put any commitment into something, it's makes it difficult for YOU to change your mind. Even if you leave your phone number without an offer, they'll not write it on a scrap of paper, but on the first piece of paper that's near to hand (which is a commitment to buy form). They know what you're doing.

Just don't sign anything unless it's clear what you're signing. Please don't get fooled into anything. Try to recognise the tricks and turn them around to your favour. Be very suspicious and absolutely be prepared to walk away if you feel uncomfortable. I only put a deposit down to hold the vehicle while a main dealer was checking it out, and then it was something I would have been prepared to risk losing (like $250), not the $5,000 they originally wanted.

Saying all this, I'm not trying to get at car salesmen as I know they're trying to make a living like anyone else. I actually have great respect for their techniques, particularly the way they play on psychology without perhaps having any theoretical training in this area. But when you purchase a car it's probably the first or second largest expense you'll face with lots of risks if it isn't right. To a salesmen you're probably one of 10-50 people he might speak to on that day alone. You have to be prepared and keep control of the situation as he won't be looking out for you unless he's a buddy or family (unlikely).



Now, regarding the temporary solution I promised. Here's what I did....

After initial frustration with looking for cars, I decided to take time to learn about the models so that when I bought one it would be the right one. This took me 6 months, but only about a month after I really started to feel established in Canada. Now delighted with what I have and would not have wanted it any other way.

To find out about cars, ask people about theirs and the brands they recommend. Also consider a subscription to consumerreports.org (a bit like Which?). They provide detail on vehicles and other product brands, but also consumer satisfaction reports from real owners. This is the most important thing, as many cars I was really attracted to own, would probably have left me regretting them, when reading real customer satisfaction ratings. Just because there's a lot of a particular vehicle on the road doesn't mean that they're any good.

Originally I'd get a rental car at weekends from Avis which had offices near where I was living. The weekend rates $30-40 per day were reasonable. You also have to pay for Collision Damage Waiver at about $20-25 per day, but if you have a Canadian gold credit card this is normally provided free as one of the benefits of the card.

As time went on I found the best deal of all was at Enterprise car rental, and I see the deal is still on. Basically they do a special 3 day weekend rate that works out at about $20 per day, unlimited miles. Only penalty is that you have to bring car back with same level of fuel which takes some planning but I never overfilled, and did take some liberties with this. I totally recommend the Enterprise car rental place in North Vancouver for Vancouver residents, even if you don't live there. You can get the sea bus from town, and then hop on a bus that drops you off almost opposite their branch. The downtown branches don't have this offer, so it's worth the trip.

As you only have the vehicle a few days of the week, you have to plan how you're going to use it. We used to go out for the day and then have a meal out, and the do our shopping at night.

One of the other benefits of renting a car is that you will get to not only practice your driving, but also you get experience with a number of major brands. There's absolutely nothing like having a car for a weekend to really put it to the test, especially if you're doing your food shopping with it. I really got to love the new model Pontiacs, particularly the names; Grand Am, Grand Prix, G6... Ironically I didn't end up with one as my main car, but I'm certainly considering one as a second vehicle. You also get to see how economical each vehicle is.

Someone at my previous workplace thought I was crazy doing this. His reasoning was that the $300 or so per month I was paying for a rental car, would be the monthly payment on a vehicle which is mine to keep. While this is true, it's ignoring certain facts which more accurately contribute to the true cost of ownership. These include:

1. Depreciation
2. Maintenance
3. Cleaning
4. Storage
5. Insurance
6. Fluids such as transmission fluid and oil
7. Breakdown cover

When considering all these costs, then taking the kilometres that you do, you can get a cost per km. This is alarming normally. The rental car option is certainly worth considering and overall I believe it's far cheaper than owning, as well as being more appropriate during your settling period.

Another option I know little about, is cooperative car ownership schemes which are available in Vancouver area. You have to work out if these are viable in favour of car rental (which in my case they were not).

Any specific questions, PM me or post a question here if you think others would benefit. I hope this helps.

Paul

[dsquared]

Wow - super helpful. Just in the car buying process ourselves - what a 'mare! :scared:

We've also come to the conclusion that, for the short term, rental cars are the way forward.

Cheers for this.

D2

[Tiffin Tease]

very helpful but I'm still overly in the dark about it all LOL - hoping hubby will know what it is we need to do but will certainly take u up on your offer of
PM if we get totally hedged!!

[iaink]

Taking over a short term lease is also a good option. Often the original leaser will have paid $$$ up front to reduce monthly payments, which you can benefit from. Leased cars are new enough that safety issues should be a non issue.

www.swapalease.ca
www.takemypayments.ca
www.assumealease.ca
www.easyrelease.ca

For example you can assume a 5 month lease on a honda civic for $130 a month, or a VW Jetta for 7 months at $145 which beats the pants on a daily rental. You still have nothing to show for it at the end of the period of course.

Used cars in Ontario have to be safetied before they can be reregistered, so if you buy an unsafetied one its clearly buyer beware.

Salesmen have a job to do, and its the buyers job to make it as hard as possible for them. The trick is not to get so attached to a particular model that you cant just walk away. You have the upper hand because most salesmen would rather gouge there eyes out than let a buyer walk away from a potential sale. There are enough tools out there to determine how hard you should push, and the minimal cost involved to get them is well worth it.

WHATEVER YOU DO, dont go in saying "the maximum I will pay is $xxx a month" because thats exactly what you will end up paying, however, remember to take all additional taxes and charges into account, the numbers salesmen talk are tax free more often than not, and once a deal is negotiated they like to add on all sorts of bullshit extra charges. Make it clear at the begining you are talking absolute costs and then if that happens, threaten to walk away..and really mean it.

Good advice to take time to figure out whats what. The US domestic makers have no presence in Europe, and even when brands appear the same, quite often models are unfamiliar, or if the name is familiar, its built in a different plant to different standards, or is in fact totally different under the skin. VW is a good example of that here.

[dormy]

One little trick that I was shown, for the untrained , and I have used to spot a dud, was that if you can persuade them to give you 5 days "grace", and should you find any problems you can bring it back.

Then take it to Canadian Tyre or Wal-mart service centres, the mechanics are paid on commission, they only get paid if they find a problem, so any problems will be highlighted immediately free of charge, you can then make a judgement call on how serious the problems are, and whether or not to buy

[Sutherlands]

Fantastic post Paul, thank you for the time taken to give us all this information, a lot of readers will use this when landing. I Will make sure hubby looks at this thread tomorrow when he is out of his pit.....

Also thanks iaink for the links, yet more to add to my CANADA folder of links

Sutherlands

[PMM]

Hi

Originally Posted by Sutherlands Fantastic post Paul, thank you for the time taken to give us all this information, a lot of readers will use this when landing. I Will make sure hubby looks at this thread tomorrow when he is out of his pit..... Also thanks iaink for the links, yet more to add to my CANADA folder of links Sutherlands

One thing you might consider is having a BCAA mobile inspection on the car, especially used ones that you are buying privately, it is worth the $132

[g_is_for_canada]

Originally Posted by iaink WHATEVER YOU DO, dont go in saying "the maximum I will pay is $xxx a month" because thats exactly what you will end up paying

Totally agree. In the dialogue/scenerio I was playing out, this assumes that you've already decided what price you're going to offer is, and you're certain that should it be accepted, you'd go ahead with it (subject to any conditions which you must also make clear and get in writing if you sign anything. You should definitely NOT go in and say that you've got $xxxxxx to spend, please help me spend it.

Only give a salesman information that can benefit you. They'll ask what your range is - be vague or simply refuse. You're more than capable of seeing how much their cars are, and if you said "oh, $20-25,000" they'll try and sell you one costing $28,000 and then try and add tax to it. They might ask how soon you're planning on buying a car (particularly if buying new). Again, if you can't think how them knowing this will benefit you, don't give them the information. You could ask why they need to know.

However once you've decided what you're prepared to offer, you should state this is your maximum. They need a figure to go by and when they phone up pestering, you can take control of the conversation saying "I told you this was my maximum, and nothing has changed. Are you accepting the offer?" It's just playing them at their own game, although an offer is an offer, so don't mess them around.

[dbd33]

Originally Posted by iaink Taking over a short term lease is also a good option. Often the original leaser will have paid $$$ up front to reduce monthly payments, which you can benefit from. Leased cars are new enough that safety issues should be a non issue. www.swapalease.ca www.takemypayments.ca www.assumealease.ca www.easyrelease.ca For example you can assume a 5 month lease on a honda civic for $130 a month, or a VW Jetta for 7 months at $145 which beats the pants on a daily rental. You still have nothing to show for it at the end of the period of course. Used cars in Ontario have to be safetied before they can be reregistered, so if you buy an unsafetied one its clearly buyer beware. Salesmen have a job to do, and its the buyers job to make it as hard as possible for them. The trick is not to get so attached to a particular model that you cant just walk away. You have the upper hand because most salesmen would rather gouge there eyes out than let a buyer walk away from a potential sale. There are enough tools out there to determine how hard you should push, and the minimal cost involved to get them is well worth it. WHATEVER YOU DO, dont go in saying "the maximum I will pay is $xxx a month" because thats exactly what you will end up paying, however, remember to take all additional taxes and charges into account, the numbers salesmen talk are tax free more often than not, and once a deal is negotiated they like to add on all sorts of bullshit extra charges. Make it clear at the begining you are talking absolute costs and then if that happens, threaten to walk away..and really mean it. Good advice to take time to figure out whats what. The US domestic makers have no presence in Europe, and even when brands appear the same, quite often models are unfamiliar, or if the name is familiar, its built in a different plant to different standards, or is in fact totally different under the skin. VW is a good example of that here.

Also http://www.leasebusters.com/

[JaseAndHeth]

Great thread - loads of useful info!!

Sounds like buying a car from Carcraft in the UK - which by the way I haven't and really don't recommend anyone does!! Heth worked for Carcraft while she was a student answering calls in their inbound call centre. Someone could ask "Do you have a 1999 Ford Focus in Green with leather seats, under 30,000 miles for around £5,000?" and they were trained to always answer "Yes". Quite simply because "the buyer doesn't know what they want until they get here". Horrendous! The number of people who made wasted journeys and complained! They will also sit you down at a table and whilst your salesman goes to "try and negotiate the price down with his boss" (on your behalf!) they are listening in to what you are saying to one another!!

Throw in the fact that the cars are easily £1,000 over the odds on the forecourts and that they try every trick in the book to get you to part with cash for a deposit etc so that you "secure the car today". Their finance is at unacceptably high levels - up to 30% APR!!! No wonder they will give credit to anyone! You could pay three times what the car is worth over the length of the agreement. They also advertise a "one hour driveaway" agreement. The quickest you will get your car is 3 days.

The only upside is that regulation in the UK forces them to offer a warranty and to accept returns within 14 days of contract agreement. Additionally, cars sold by the trade in the UK must be "fit for the purpose" and must meet strict safety laws - so the chances of getting a lemon are quite slim! This doesn't, however, apply to private sales - Caveat Emptor! Buyer beware!! Also, no tax on used vehicles helps!

Thanks for the info in Canada - I love tough negotiation - I really like to make them sweat. The thing to remember is that (generally!) whatever vehicle they have that you've "fallen in love with" - there are plenty more available from many many other places! Try not to get attached to anything until your offer has been accepted and you're driving away!! Don't let the vehicle cloud your judgement!

[H143]

Great post, Paul. Thanks for doing that for us all!

What car did you end up getting? What do you think of buying ex rental cars, e.g. buying one from Budget?

I never knew you could hire cars long term - I would definitely have done that had I known!

[iaink]

The thing I forgot to add about the lease option is that, although I was able to lease when I arrived on a work permit, Im not sure how credit worthy you would need to be to assume a lease. It required a reasonably large security deposit in my case.

The advantage if you can lease is that you start that canadian credit history ball rolling.

[Atlantic Xpat]

All good stuff so far.

My 10 cents is to be an educated consumer. Do your research, understand the market price for your second hand car, the finance deals on the new etc etc. I recently leased a Jeep and found the dealer's website useful inasmuch as you can search their inventory for the spec of car you want. Then you can use a payment calculator to play around with deposits, tradein value, annual kms, term etc. So when the salesman told me 'Ok the deal is X per mth' I could say hangon a moment, according to your/jeep's own website the deal is Y. After a little investigation they came back and said 'ok you're right!' which saved me $50 a month. I suspect that an uneducated consumer would have been screwed over with the extra $50 a month going to the dealer/finance co.

The other thing to do is to wait, if possible, until you have become fully accustomed to the value of money here. Don't buy while your head is still converting everything back to sterling. Otherwise that intial deal at $600 a month that seemed reasonable a week after you landed might seem bloody expensive a year later when you understand taxes, insurance cost, grocery prices etc etc!

If you have a pile of cash to sink into a car then a second hand deal is attractive IMHO. If you don't then borrowing at 8%+ should be compared carefully against the low rate finance deals (either purchase or lease) on new vehicles. Bear in mind that depreciation is a bitch and that shiny new 4x4 will be worth half of what you paid for it a year later. But if you plan to keep a longer time or lease to avoid the depreciation hit then new is a good way to go. I'm a recent convert to leasing, having taken a Diesel Liberty over 3 years for a reasonable (& lower than the gas one I had before) monthly payment with 3 years of warranty cover and no worries about crappy residuals at the end. (But nothing to show for it either.)

I've found car salesmen here to be no more pushy than UK but that maybe a Newfoundland thing . I certainly found the bullshit quotient higher when dealing with salesman in Essex but then again thats probably an Essex thing!

AX

[SkiBunny]

Really helpful thread thanks Paul

Also thanks for the links to the lease sites Iaink I hadn't thought of that and it may well be a good option for us.

[g_is_for_canada]

Originally Posted by H143 Great post, Paul. Thanks for doing that for us all! What car did you end up getting? What do you think of buying ex rental cars, e.g. buying one from Budget? I never knew you could hire cars long term - I would definitely have done that had I known!

Hi,

Good question - I ended up with an Infiniti QX4, which is a luxury SUV. There aren't too many of these around in Canada, and those that originated in the country, have mostly been brought over from the East Coast. From what I've seen of these, many have corrosion damage due to higher amounts of anti-icing used.

I ended up buying a US vehicle, which is something I was strictly against. In fact I managed to get a very detailed car report and got a used vehicle with 6 months bumper to bumper warranty on it, plus another year and a bit of major components.

Regarding ex-rental cars, I think it's a good idea. They get rid of them because they have a useful 'shelf' life and not normally because there's much wrong with them. As a business is about car rental, they're probably more realistic with prices.

Although I rented for 6 months, I didn't have a long term rental although that's worth looking into. I was just booking most weekends on an ad-hoc basis. This gives the advantage of choosing the right vehicle for the weekend. This weekend we're moving, let's get a RAM. Next weekend we'll spend in town, let's get a small car. The weekend after, I'm going to veg out, let's skip the car rental.