alec.peck

I'm sure that this has been asked a million times before so apologies in advance but....

My wife and I (both UK citizens and in the US on a valid visa) gave birth to our first child 7 weeks ago in the US. Now I get that he is automatically a US citizen but we want to go back to the UK for Christmas and am unsure whether or not we need a US or UK passport for him or how to go about getting them in the first place! Are we best to get both? If so what is the process? If we get only a UK or US passport now does that jeopordise his dual nationality?

We have his US birth certificate and are in the process of registering the birth with the UK consular in Washington.

Please help or at least point me in the right direction!

Stuart Brook

alec.peck wrote:

    > I'm sure that this has been asked a million times before so apologies in
    > advance but....
    >
    > My wife and I (both UK citizens and in the US on a valid visa) gave
    > birth to our first child 7 weeks ago in the US. Now I get that he is
    > automatically a US citizen but we want to go back to the UK for
    > Christmas and am unsure whether or not we need a US or UK passport for
    > him or how to go about getting them in the first place! Are we best to
    > get both? If so what is the process? If we get only a UK or US
    > passport now does that jeopordise his dual nationality?
    >
    > We have his US birth certificate and are in the process of registering
    > the birth with the UK consular in Washington.
    >
    > Please help or at least point me in the right direction!
    >

Nothing you do will impact the fact that he is, by birthright, both a US
and UK citizen.

To re-enter the USA, he MUST have a US passport ... therefore there is
no question about needing that. To enter the UK, he can enter with a US
passport, but for the purpose of having an undisputable proof of his UK
citizenship (and the ability to use the UK passports line!) there are
advantages to having a UK passport.

The UK embassy site in washington gives details on how to get a
passport, and your local post office I believe has passport application
forms for the US.

Stephen Gallagher

    > I'm sure that this has been asked a million times before so apologies in
    > advance but....

Not a million, just a few hundred thousand..... ;-)

    > My wife and I (both UK citizens and in the US on a valid visa) gave
    > birth to our first child 7 weeks ago in the US. Now I get that he is
    > automatically a US citizen

Yes he is, unless you and your wife are in the
US as diplomats, which I would guess you are not.

    > but we want to go back to the UK for
    > Christmas and am unsure whether or not we need a US or UK passport for
    > him

First, let's also say that your child is,
most likely, also a British citizen.
He would not be a British citizen if both
you AND your wife were British by descent.
If either you or your wife (or both) are
British other than by descent, then your
son is a British citizen (by descent).
He is also a US citizen.

or how to go about getting them in the first place!

To obtain a US passport for him you will need his
US birth certificate. Check the government pages
of the local phone book under passports. Very often
passport applications are available at post offices.
This State Department website can help you find the
nearest passport issuing sites, to your home
http://iafdb.travel.state.gov/

US citizens must have a US passport to enter the US,
unless entering from adjacent countries like Canada or
Mexico, when a birth certificate and photo ID is
acceptable.

There's an old law which allows US citizen children
who are dual citizens to enter the US if listed
in a parent's foreign passport and if a US birth
certificate is presented, but Britain doesn't
put children into a parent's passport anymore,
AND the method is not recommended as some
airlines have turned away passengers who have tried
to travel with this method (even though they legally
could). So, get him a US passport.

To get a British passport for him, you should contact
the nearest British consulate. All British passports
in the US are issued through the British Embassy in
Washington DC. If you're going back to Britain just
for a short visit, then he doesn't absolutely need
to have a British passport, but it's good as it
establishes positive proof of his British citizenship.

    > Are we best to get both?

You can, but get the US passport first, since it is
an absolute requirement for your upcoming trip,
whereas the British one is not.

    > If we get only a UK or US
    > passport now does that jeopordise his dual nationality?

No. Under the laws of the US and the UK, he will be
able to keep and make use of both citizenships for life.

Note that, in the US, there is a commonly held
misconception that a dual citizen must choose only
one citizenship when he reaches a certain age.
It's not true, at least not from a US (or British)
point of view. Some other countries do have
such a requirement, but the US (or UK) do not.
You can get a better overview of the US policies
on dual citizenship at: http://www.richw.org/dualcit/

    >
    > We have his US birth certificate and are in the process of registering
    > the birth with the UK consular in Washington.

Great. Then that will establish that he is definitely
British.

You can get him a British passport, if you wish, but it
wouldn't be necessary for visiting Britain.

One thing to keep in mind. I don't know if you and your
wife would be be allowed to take your child through the
EEA passport holders queue on arrival in Britain, if all
you had was his US passport. That alone may make having
a British passport for him a bit of a time saver.

Stephen Gallagher

Gus Macintosh

On 30 Sep 2004 05:53:16 -0700, [email protected] (Stephen
Gallagher) wrote:

    >> I'm sure that this has been asked a million times before so apologies in
    >> advance but....
    >Not a million, just a few hundred thousand..... ;-)
    >> My wife and I (both UK citizens and in the US on a valid visa) gave
    >> birth to our first child 7 weeks ago in the US. Now I get that he is
    >> automatically a US citizen
    >Yes he is, unless you and your wife are in the
    >US as diplomats, which I would guess you are not.
    >> but we want to go back to the UK for
    >> Christmas and am unsure whether or not we need a US or UK passport for
    >> him
    >First, let's also say that your child is,
    >most likely, also a British citizen.
    >He would not be a British citizen if both
    >you AND your wife were British by descent.
    >If either you or your wife (or both) are
    >British other than by descent, then your
    >son is a British citizen (by descent).
    >He is also a US citizen.
    >or how to go about getting them in the first place!
    >To obtain a US passport for him you will need his
    >US birth certificate. Check the government pages
    >of the local phone book under passports. Very often
    >passport applications are available at post offices.
    >This State Department website can help you find the
    >nearest passport issuing sites, to your home
    >http://iafdb.travel.state.gov/
    >US citizens must have a US passport to enter the US,
    >unless entering from adjacent countries like Canada or
    >Mexico, when a birth certificate and photo ID is
    >acceptable.
    >There's an old law which allows US citizen children
    >who are dual citizens to enter the US if listed
    >in a parent's foreign passport and if a US birth
    >certificate is presented, but Britain doesn't
    >put children into a parent's passport anymore,
    >AND the method is not recommended as some
    >airlines have turned away passengers who have tried
    >to travel with this method (even though they legally
    >could). So, get him a US passport.
    >To get a British passport for him, you should contact
    >the nearest British consulate. All British passports
    >in the US are issued through the British Embassy in
    >Washington DC. If you're going back to Britain just
    >for a short visit, then he doesn't absolutely need
    >to have a British passport, but it's good as it
    >establishes positive proof of his British citizenship.
    >> Are we best to get both?
    >You can, but get the US passport first, since it is
    >an absolute requirement for your upcoming trip,
    >whereas the British one is not.
    >> If we get only a UK or US
    >> passport now does that jeopordise his dual nationality?
    >No. Under the laws of the US and the UK, he will be
    >able to keep and make use of both citizenships for life.
    >Note that, in the US, there is a commonly held
    >misconception that a dual citizen must choose only
    >one citizenship when he reaches a certain age.
    >It's not true, at least not from a US (or British)
    >point of view. Some other countries do have
    >such a requirement, but the US (or UK) do not.
    >You can get a better overview of the US policies
    >on dual citizenship at: http://www.richw.org/dualcit/
    >>
    >> We have his US birth certificate and are in the process of registering
    >> the birth with the UK consular in Washington.
    >Great. Then that will establish that he is definitely
    >British.
    >You can get him a British passport, if you wish, but it
    >wouldn't be necessary for visiting Britain.
    >One thing to keep in mind. I don't know if you and your
    >wife would be be allowed to take your child through the
    >EEA passport holders queue on arrival in Britain, if all
    >you had was his US passport. That alone may make having
    >a British passport for him a bit of a time saver.
    >Stephen Gallagher

Accurate and sensible information Stephen. The UK immigration people
willl have no problem with a US passport for a minor child. We have 4
children, 2 who travel on British passports and 2 younger kids who
travel on US passports. We all enter the UK together through the UK
(EC) passport line and on return to the US, we all enter together
through the US passport holders line without any problem.

Gus

Stephen Gallagher

(snip)
    > We have 4 children, 2 who travel on British passports and
    > 2 younger kids who travel on US passports. We all enter
    > the UK together through the UK (EC) passport line

Good to know.

    > and on
    > return to the US, we all enter together
    > through the US passport holders line without any problem.

I've seen US immigration to be somewhat hit or miss
on that. My father is a US citizen, but my mother
is British and holds a Green Card. They've gone
through the US citizen line together a few times
with no problems, but at least once, when they got
to the desk, the immigration officer took a
"can't you read" attitude, and sent my mom to the
end of the non-citizen line (which was more of a
hassle because they were using a common customs
declaration form.)

I've now seen that many US airports now allow
permanent residents and US citizens to use
the same line, which has eliminated that problem.

Stephen Gallagher

Alun

[email protected] (Stephen Gallagher) wrote in
news:[email protected] :

    > (snip)
    >> We have 4 children, 2 who travel on British passports and
    >> 2 younger kids who travel on US passports. We all enter the UK
    >> together through the UK (EC) passport line
    >
    > Good to know.
    >
    >> and on
    >> return to the US, we all enter together through the US passport
    >> holders line without any problem.
    >
    > I've seen US immigration to be somewhat hit or miss
    > on that. My father is a US citizen, but my mother
    > is British and holds a Green Card. They've gone
    > through the US citizen line together a few times
    > with no problems, but at least once, when they got
    > to the desk, the immigration officer took a
    > "can't you read" attitude, and sent my mom to the
    > end of the non-citizen line (which was more of a
    > hassle because they were using a common customs
    > declaration form.)
    >
    > I've now seen that many US airports now allow
    > permanent residents and US citizens to use
    > the same line, which has eliminated that problem.
    >
    > Stephen Gallagher

All agreed. There's one other problem, but you can't do much about it. US
and UK rules for citizenship by descent are different. UK goes by birth of
the parent, but the US has complicated residence rules for the parent.

The catch is that if, for example, you move back to the UK before your
children are 14, they will be able to pass on NO citizenship atall to your
grandchildren. There's really no fix for that, though. Hopefully your
grandchildren will get citizenship of at least somewhere by birth of from
the other parent.

Celtic_Angel

If you're just going back to U.k for a visit over the holidays I'd say just go ahead and get him a U.S passport , you can go to most post offices to do this , unfortunately for a first passport you have to go in person, all of you I think ( Ihave yet to go through all this )
In the long term though you're best off getting both U.S and U.K passports, I've only registerd the birth of my eldest because i was pretty much told it was just a waste of money and i was best off spending the cash getting the passports instead(woman at consulate told me this)
Good luck, congrats and have a great time xmas showing off the new addition

JAJ

Not really. A British citizen parent does not automatically make you British, if the parent is British 'by descent' and the child is born *outside* the UK & its Territories.

On the other hand many people born in the UK to non-British parents are automatically British citizens - if born in the UK, it's enough to have one parent who is a UK permanent resident.

This is different to countries which have a 'blood' citizenship rule and don't really care where one is born (eg Japan).

The age at which the children move back to the UK is irrelevant - as you say, once a British citizen 'by descent' that status is fixed.

If the grandchildren are born in the UK then it won't matter whether the British citizen parent is British 'by descent' or not - they will automatically be British.

However, if the grandchildren are born *outside* the UK, there are still some limited circumstances in which they could be registered as British citizens.
http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/ind...tizenship.html

Or they could be sponsored to live in the UK by the British parent, and then registered as British once settled in the UK.


If a child was born to a British parent overseas and did not have *any* citizenship or nationality, then the Home Secretary would normally be prepared to consider discretionary registration. Provided this was applied for before the child was 18.

Jeremy

Alun

JAJ <member23519@british_expats.com> wrote in news:34$257460$1704139
[email protected]:

    >
    >> [email protected] (Stephen Gallagher) wrote in
    >> news:[email protected] :
    >> > (snip)
    >> >> We have 4 children, 2 who travel on British passports and
    >> >> 2 younger kids who travel on US passports. We all enter the UK
    >> >> together through the UK (EC) passport line
    >> >
    >> > Good to know.
    >> >
    >> >> and on
    >> >> return to the US, we all enter together through the US passport
    >> >> holders line without any problem.
    >> >
    >> > I've seen US immigration to be somewhat hit or miss
    >> > on that. My father is a US citizen, but my mother
    >> > is British and holds a Green Card. They've gone
    >> > through the US citizen line together a few times
    >> > with no problems, but at least once, when they got
    >> > to the desk, the immigration officer took a
    >> > "can't you read" attitude, and sent my mom to the
    >> > end of the non-citizen line (which was more of a
    >> > hassle because they were using a common customs
    >> > declaration form.)
    >> >
    >> > I've now seen that many US airports now allow
    >> > permanent residents and US citizens to use
    >> > the same line, which has eliminated that problem.
    >> >
    >> > Stephen Gallagher
    >> All agreed. There's one other problem, but you can't do much about it.
    >> US
    >> and UK rules for citizenship by descent are different. UK goes by
    >> birth of
    >> the parent, but the US has complicated residence rules for the parent.
    >> The catch is that if, for example, you move back to the UK before your
    >> children are 14, they will be able to pass on NO citizenship atall to
    >> your grandchildren. There's really no fix for that, though. Hopefully
    >> your grandchildren will get citizenship of at least somewhere by birth
    >> of from the other parent.
    >
    > Not really. A British citizen parent does not automatically make you
    > British, if the parent is British 'by descent' and the child is born
    > *outside* the UK & its Territories.

Didn't say it did, I said British citizenship by descent is based on the
birth of the parents.

    > On the other hand many people born in the UK to non-British parents are
    > automatically British citizens - if born in the UK, it's enough to have
    > one parent who is a UK permanent resident.
    >
    > This is different to countries which have a 'blood' citizenship rule and
    > don't really care where one is born (eg Japan).
    >
    >
    >
    > The age at which the children move back to the UK is irrelevant - as you
    > say, once a British citizen 'by descent' that status is fixed.

But it is relevant. It determines if they can pass on US citizenship, for
which they have to have lived in the US for five years after age 14.

    > If the grandchildren are born in the UK then it won't matter whether the
    > British citizen parent is British 'by descent' or not - they will
    > automatically be British.
    >
    > However, if the grandchildren are born *outside* the UK, there are still
    > some limited circumstances in which they could be registered as British
    > citizens.
    > /ind/en/home/applying/british_nationality/advice_about_nationality/bn4_-
    > _british_citizenship.html
    >
    > Or they could be sponsored to live in the UK by the British parent, and
    > then registered as British once settled in the UK.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > If a child was born to a British parent overseas and did not have *any*
    > citizenship or nationality, then the Home Secretary would normally be
    > prepared to consider discretionary registration. Provided this was
    > applied for before the child was 18.
    >
    > Jeremy
    >

Alun

Celtic_Angel <member28433@british_expats.com> wrote in news:34$257460
[email protected]:

    >
    >> I'm sure that this has been asked a million times before so apologies
    >> in advance but....
    >> My wife and I (both UK citizens and in the US on a valid visa) gave
    >> birth to our first child 7 weeks ago in the US. Now I get that he is
    >> automatically a US citizen but we want to go back to the UK for
    >> Christmas and am unsure whether or not we need a US or UK passport for
    >> him or how to go about getting them in the first place! Are we best
    >> to get both? If so what is the process? If we get only a UK or US
    >> passport now does that jeopordise his dual nationality?
    >> We have his US birth certificate and are in the process of registering
    >> the birth with the UK consular in Washington.
    >> Please help or at least point me in the right direction!
    >
    > If you're just going back to U.k for a visit over the holidays I'd say
    > just go ahead and get him a U.S passport , you can go to most post
    > offices to do this , unfortunately for a first passport you have to go
    > in person, all of you I think ( Ihave yet to go through all this )

Only the parent has to go to the post office. It feels quite peculiar
signing a US passport application when you are not a US citizen, but you
can, and your US citizen child doesn't have to be there.

    > In the long term though you're best off getting both U.S and U.K
    > passports, I've only registerd the birth of my eldest because i was
    > pretty much told it was just a waste of money and i was best off
    > spending the cash getting the passports instead(woman at consulate told
    > me this)
    > Good luck, congrats and have a great time xmas showing off the new
    > addition :)
    >

Stephen Gallagher

    > > The age at which the children move back to the UK is irrelevant - as you
    > > say, once a British citizen 'by descent' that status is fixed.
    > >
    >
    > But it is relevant. It determines if they can pass on US citizenship, for
    > which they have to have lived in the US for five years after age 14.

It should be noted that the current law for passing US citizenship to
a child born abroad, which applies to children born on or after
November 14, 1986, requires that the parent has spent five years
in the US prior to the birth. But it only requires that TWO of those
years be after age fourteen. This is using the premise
that the child is born in wedlock, AND that the other parent is NOT a
US citizen. Also note that the requirement is for physical presence
in the US, not residence. Visits to the US would count, but you would
need documentation to back them up.

When both parents are US citizens and the child is born in wedlock,
then as long as at least one parent has resided in the US at any time
prior to the birth, the child is a US citizen. (In this case, it does require
residence, not mere physical presence).

The law that required a parent to have five years in the US after
age fourteen also required that the parent have a total of ten years
physical presence in the US and applies to persons born between
December 24, 1952 and November 13, 1986 inclusive.

Stephen Gallagher

Celtic_Angel

[QUOTE=Alun]Only the parent has to go to the post office. It feels quite peculiar
signing a US passport application when you are not a US citizen, but you
can, and your US citizen child doesn't have to be there.

[QUOTE]

well I got my information from this site

http://travel.state.gov/passports/get_first_apply.html

here it clearly states that when appling for a first time U.S passport the minor HAS to be present, also consent of both parents
look on this site and get all the info or else you'll have a wasted trip to the Post Office

Alun

Celtic_Angel <member28433@british_expats.com> wrote in news:34$257460
[email protected]:

    >
    >> Celtic_Angel <member28433@british_expats.com> wrote in news:34$257460
    >> [email protected]:
    >> >
    >> >> I'm sure that this has been asked a million times before so
    >> >> apologies in advance but....
    >> >> My wife and I (both UK citizens and in the US on a valid visa) gave
    >> >> birth to our first child 7 weeks ago in the US. Now I get that he
    >> >> is automatically a US citizen but we want to go back to the UK for
    >> >> Christmas and am unsure whether or not we need a US or UK passport
    >> >> for him or how to go about getting them in the first place! Are we
    >> >> best to get both? If so what is the process? If we get only a UK
    >> >> or US passport now does that jeopordise his dual nationality?
    >> >> We have his US birth certificate and are in the process of
    >> >> registering the birth with the UK consular in Washington.
    >> >> Please help or at least point me in the right direction!
    >> >
    >> > If you're just going back to U.k for a visit over the holidays I'd
    >> > say just go ahead and get him a U.S passport , you can go to most
    >> > post offices to do this , unfortunately for a first passport you
    >> > have to go in person, all of you I think ( Ihave yet to go through
    >> > all this )
    >> Only the parent has to go to the post office. It feels quite peculiar
    >> signing a US passport application when you are not a US citizen, but
    >> you can, and your US citizen child doesn't have to be there.
    >> > In the long term though you're best off getting both U.S and U.K
    >> > passports, I've only registerd the birth of my eldest because i was
    >> > pretty much told it was just a waste of money and i was best off
    >> > spending the cash getting the passports instead(woman at consulate
    >> > told me this)
    >> > Good luck, congrats and have a great time xmas showing off the new
    >> > addition :)
    >> >
    >
    > [QUOTE=Alun]Only the parent has to go to the post office. It feels quite
    > peculiar
    > signing a US passport application when you are not a US citizen, but you
    > can, and your US citizen child doesn't have to be there.
    >
    > [QUOTE]
    >
    > well I got my information from this site
    >
    > http://travel.state.gov/passports/get_first_apply.html
    >
    > here it clearly states that when appling for a first time U.S passport
    > the minor HAS to be present, also consent of both parents :)
    > look on this site and get all the info or else you'll have a wasted
    > trip to the Post Office
    >

I won't have a wasted trip anywhere. I was describing what I did with our
children's first US passport applications, past tense. I think my wife did
also have to sign the forms, but she didn't have to go with me, and neither
did the children.

Now, it is entirely possible with Homeland Insecurity etc that the
procedures have been changed to cause maximum inconvenience...