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Newbie Question From A U.S / U.K Dual National

Newbie Question From A U.S / U.K Dual National

Old May 12th 2003, 1:04 pm
  #1  
Ben Jessel
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Newbie Question From A U.S / U.K Dual National

Hi,

I've dual U.S / U.K ( with red and blue passports to prove it too! ).
I was born in the U.K and indeed have lived in the U.K for the whole
of my life.

I'm looking to move to the states in about a year. I am also engaged,
and I would like to take my U.K fiancee with me ( please no jokes
about why marrying americans is better... ).

Now I just don't know how to start. For me, I'm guessing I'm going to
need

- N.I number
- voting registration
- some other form of registration (?)


For her, I am imagining I am going to need

- Some kind of form to say that she's my fiancee, so has some sort of
working rights.
- ? Green Card ?
- ? N.I Number?

Are these assumptions correct? What else would I need, and how would I
go about getting them.

What working rights would she have as my fiancee, and how would these
rights change if we were to marry. Also, would she be able to
naturalize after we got married? How quickly?

What kind of job would she be able to get as my fiancee - i.e would
she only be able to do casual work, or could she be legally allowed
work in a normal capacity?

I've heard scare stories about how the administration charges a
fortune should you marry an non U.S national ( as a way of making sure
you marry a U.S national ). I've heard $2000, and possibly a year wait
being banded around. Other people suggest getting an attorney.

Help! I don't even know where to start!!

Thanks

Ben

ps By the way, my reply email address does not work. Use benjessel AT
hotmail.com
 
Old May 12th 2003, 2:53 pm
  #2  
L D Jones
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Newbie Question From A U.S / U.K Dual National

Ben Jessel wrote:
    >
    > Hi,
    >
    > I've dual U.S / U.K ( with red and blue passports to prove it too! ).
    > I was born in the U.K and indeed have lived in the U.K for the whole
    > of my life.
    >
    > I'm looking to move to the states in about a year. I am also engaged,
    > and I would like to take my U.K fiancee with me ( please no jokes
    > about why marrying americans is better... ).
    >
    > Now I just don't know how to start. For me, I'm guessing I'm going to
    > need
    >
    > - N.I number
    > - voting registration
    > - some other form of registration (?)

No. Your US passport is used to prove citizenship. Your UK passport is
used to prove that you are a UK resident. Your NI number is irrelevant
to the US immigration authorities. Do you have a social security number?

Marry in the UK and file the I-130 and related forms directly at the US
consulate

http://www.usembassy.org.uk/cons_web/ins/i130filing.htm

    > For her, I am imagining I am going to need
    >
    > - Some kind of form to say that she's my fiancee, so has some sort of
    > working rights.
    > - ? Green Card ?

Your spouse will eventually obtain a green card through the process of
filing the I-130 at the consulate. She cannot be awarded one simply
based on marriage to a US citizen

    > - ? N.I Number?

Not needed

    > Are these assumptions correct? What else would I need, and how would I
    > go about getting them.
    >
    > What working rights would she have as my fiancee, and how would these
    > rights change if we were to marry. Also, would she be able to
    > naturalize after we got married? How quickly?

My advice is to forget the US fiancee visa. One problem is that I
believe the K-1 has to be filed in the US

    > What kind of job would she be able to get as my fiancee - i.e would
    > she only be able to do casual work, or could she be legally allowed
    > work in a normal capacity?

With an EAD (employment authorization document, usually obtained after
arrival in the US on K-1) any work is possible

    > I've heard scare stories about how the administration charges a
    > fortune should you marry an non U.S national ( as a way of making sure
    > you marry a U.S national ). I've heard $2000, and possibly a year wait
    > being banded around. Other people suggest getting an attorney.

It will cost several hundred dollars to file at the consulate but not
$2000 (closer to $1000). If you prepare in advance it will take as
little as 3 months for the visa to be processed. You may have trouble
with the required 'affidavit of support' since you probably don't have a
home in the US and you probably have not filed (my guess) any US tax
returns. Read about the I-864 form on the US embassy website.

I think the problem of a job in the US and the question of domicile will
be the most difficult to overcome in your situation. You have to prove
you can take care of your spouse financially and the I-864 is required
to show that (and would also be required during "AOS" after entry to the
US on a fiancee visa too)

Read this FAQ carefully
http://www.usembassy.org.uk/cons_web...iv/ivindex.htm

LD (USC who filed directly at the consulate in 2001)
 
Old May 13th 2003, 1:00 pm
  #3  
Ben Jessel
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Newbie Question From A U.S / U.K Dual National

Thanks, I'll look into it.

L D Jones wrote in message news:...
    > Ben Jessel wrote:
    > >
    > > Hi,
    > >
    > > I've dual U.S / U.K ( with red and blue passports to prove it too! ).
    > > I was born in the U.K and indeed have lived in the U.K for the whole
    > > of my life.
    > >
    > > I'm looking to move to the states in about a year. I am also engaged,
    > > and I would like to take my U.K fiancee with me ( please no jokes
    > > about why marrying americans is better... ).
    > >
    > > Now I just don't know how to start. For me, I'm guessing I'm going to
    > > need
    > >
    > > - N.I number
    > > - voting registration
    > > - some other form of registration (?)
    >
    > No. Your US passport is used to prove citizenship. Your UK passport is
    > used to prove that you are a UK resident. Your NI number is irrelevant
    > to the US immigration authorities. Do you have a social security number?
    >
    > Marry in the UK and file the I-130 and related forms directly at the US
    > consulate
    >
    > http://www.usembassy.org.uk/cons_web/ins/i130filing.htm
    >
    > > For her, I am imagining I am going to need
    > >
    > > - Some kind of form to say that she's my fiancee, so has some sort of
    > > working rights.
    > > - ? Green Card ?
    >
    > Your spouse will eventually obtain a green card through the process of
    > filing the I-130 at the consulate. She cannot be awarded one simply
    > based on marriage to a US citizen
    >
    > > - ? N.I Number?
    >
    > Not needed
    >
    > > Are these assumptions correct? What else would I need, and how would I
    > > go about getting them.
    > >
    > > What working rights would she have as my fiancee, and how would these
    > > rights change if we were to marry. Also, would she be able to
    > > naturalize after we got married? How quickly?
    >
    > My advice is to forget the US fiancee visa. One problem is that I
    > believe the K-1 has to be filed in the US
    >
    > > What kind of job would she be able to get as my fiancee - i.e would
    > > she only be able to do casual work, or could she be legally allowed
    > > work in a normal capacity?
    >
    > With an EAD (employment authorization document, usually obtained after
    > arrival in the US on K-1) any work is possible
    >
    > > I've heard scare stories about how the administration charges a
    > > fortune should you marry an non U.S national ( as a way of making sure
    > > you marry a U.S national ). I've heard $2000, and possibly a year wait
    > > being banded around. Other people suggest getting an attorney.
    >
    > It will cost several hundred dollars to file at the consulate but not
    > $2000 (closer to $1000). If you prepare in advance it will take as
    > little as 3 months for the visa to be processed. You may have trouble
    > with the required 'affidavit of support' since you probably don't have a
    > home in the US and you probably have not filed (my guess) any US tax
    > returns. Read about the I-864 form on the US embassy website.
    >
    > I think the problem of a job in the US and the question of domicile will
    > be the most difficult to overcome in your situation. You have to prove
    > you can take care of your spouse financially and the I-864 is required
    > to show that (and would also be required during "AOS" after entry to the
    > US on a fiancee visa too)
    >
    > Read this FAQ carefully
    > http://www.usembassy.org.uk/cons_web...iv/ivindex.htm
    >
    > LD (USC who filed directly at the consulate in 2001)
 
Old May 13th 2003, 1:00 pm
  #4  
Ben Jessel
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Newbie Question From A U.S / U.K Dual National

Thanks, I'll look into it.

L D Jones wrote in message news:...
    > Ben Jessel wrote:
    > >
    > > Hi,
    > >
    > > I've dual U.S / U.K ( with red and blue passports to prove it too! ).
    > > I was born in the U.K and indeed have lived in the U.K for the whole
    > > of my life.
    > >
    > > I'm looking to move to the states in about a year. I am also engaged,
    > > and I would like to take my U.K fiancee with me ( please no jokes
    > > about why marrying americans is better... ).
    > >
    > > Now I just don't know how to start. For me, I'm guessing I'm going to
    > > need
    > >
    > > - N.I number
    > > - voting registration
    > > - some other form of registration (?)
    >
    > No. Your US passport is used to prove citizenship. Your UK passport is
    > used to prove that you are a UK resident. Your NI number is irrelevant
    > to the US immigration authorities. Do you have a social security number?
    >
    > Marry in the UK and file the I-130 and related forms directly at the US
    > consulate
    >
    > http://www.usembassy.org.uk/cons_web/ins/i130filing.htm
    >
    > > For her, I am imagining I am going to need
    > >
    > > - Some kind of form to say that she's my fiancee, so has some sort of
    > > working rights.
    > > - ? Green Card ?
    >
    > Your spouse will eventually obtain a green card through the process of
    > filing the I-130 at the consulate. She cannot be awarded one simply
    > based on marriage to a US citizen
    >
    > > - ? N.I Number?
    >
    > Not needed
    >
    > > Are these assumptions correct? What else would I need, and how would I
    > > go about getting them.
    > >
    > > What working rights would she have as my fiancee, and how would these
    > > rights change if we were to marry. Also, would she be able to
    > > naturalize after we got married? How quickly?
    >
    > My advice is to forget the US fiancee visa. One problem is that I
    > believe the K-1 has to be filed in the US
    >
    > > What kind of job would she be able to get as my fiancee - i.e would
    > > she only be able to do casual work, or could she be legally allowed
    > > work in a normal capacity?
    >
    > With an EAD (employment authorization document, usually obtained after
    > arrival in the US on K-1) any work is possible
    >
    > > I've heard scare stories about how the administration charges a
    > > fortune should you marry an non U.S national ( as a way of making sure
    > > you marry a U.S national ). I've heard $2000, and possibly a year wait
    > > being banded around. Other people suggest getting an attorney.
    >
    > It will cost several hundred dollars to file at the consulate but not
    > $2000 (closer to $1000). If you prepare in advance it will take as
    > little as 3 months for the visa to be processed. You may have trouble
    > with the required 'affidavit of support' since you probably don't have a
    > home in the US and you probably have not filed (my guess) any US tax
    > returns. Read about the I-864 form on the US embassy website.
    >
    > I think the problem of a job in the US and the question of domicile will
    > be the most difficult to overcome in your situation. You have to prove
    > you can take care of your spouse financially and the I-864 is required
    > to show that (and would also be required during "AOS" after entry to the
    > US on a fiancee visa too)
    >
    > Read this FAQ carefully
    > http://www.usembassy.org.uk/cons_web...iv/ivindex.htm
    >
    > LD (USC who filed directly at the consulate in 2001)
 
Old May 13th 2003, 1:10 pm
  #5  
Ben Jessel
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Newbie Question From A U.S / U.K Dual National

Thanks for that.

I don't have a social security number, so I think I would need to apply for one.

Regards,

Ben

L D Jones wrote in message news:...
    > Ben Jessel wrote:
    > >
    > > Hi,
    > >
    > > I've dual U.S / U.K ( with red and blue passports to prove it too! ).
    > > I was born in the U.K and indeed have lived in the U.K for the whole
    > > of my life.
    > >
    > > I'm looking to move to the states in about a year. I am also engaged,
    > > and I would like to take my U.K fiancee with me ( please no jokes
    > > about why marrying americans is better... ).
    > >
    > > Now I just don't know how to start. For me, I'm guessing I'm going to
    > > need
    > >
    > > - N.I number
    > > - voting registration
    > > - some other form of registration (?)
    >
    > No. Your US passport is used to prove citizenship. Your UK passport is
    > used to prove that you are a UK resident. Your NI number is irrelevant
    > to the US immigration authorities. Do you have a social security number?
    >
    > Marry in the UK and file the I-130 and related forms directly at the US
    > consulate
    >
    > http://www.usembassy.org.uk/cons_web/ins/i130filing.htm
    >
    > > For her, I am imagining I am going to need
    > >
    > > - Some kind of form to say that she's my fiancee, so has some sort of
    > > working rights.
    > > - ? Green Card ?
    >
    > Your spouse will eventually obtain a green card through the process of
    > filing the I-130 at the consulate. She cannot be awarded one simply
    > based on marriage to a US citizen
    >
    > > - ? N.I Number?
    >
    > Not needed
    >
    > > Are these assumptions correct? What else would I need, and how would I
    > > go about getting them.
    > >
    > > What working rights would she have as my fiancee, and how would these
    > > rights change if we were to marry. Also, would she be able to
    > > naturalize after we got married? How quickly?
    >
    > My advice is to forget the US fiancee visa. One problem is that I
    > believe the K-1 has to be filed in the US
    >
    > > What kind of job would she be able to get as my fiancee - i.e would
    > > she only be able to do casual work, or could she be legally allowed
    > > work in a normal capacity?
    >
    > With an EAD (employment authorization document, usually obtained after
    > arrival in the US on K-1) any work is possible
    >
    > > I've heard scare stories about how the administration charges a
    > > fortune should you marry an non U.S national ( as a way of making sure
    > > you marry a U.S national ). I've heard $2000, and possibly a year wait
    > > being banded around. Other people suggest getting an attorney.
    >
    > It will cost several hundred dollars to file at the consulate but not
    > $2000 (closer to $1000). If you prepare in advance it will take as
    > little as 3 months for the visa to be processed. You may have trouble
    > with the required 'affidavit of support' since you probably don't have a
    > home in the US and you probably have not filed (my guess) any US tax
    > returns. Read about the I-864 form on the US embassy website.
    >
    > I think the problem of a job in the US and the question of domicile will
    > be the most difficult to overcome in your situation. You have to prove
    > you can take care of your spouse financially and the I-864 is required
    > to show that (and would also be required during "AOS" after entry to the
    > US on a fiancee visa too)
    >
    > Read this FAQ carefully
    > http://www.usembassy.org.uk/cons_web...iv/ivindex.htm
    >
    > LD (USC who filed directly at the consulate in 2001)
 
Old May 13th 2003, 5:38 pm
  #6  
Stephen Gallagher
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Newbie Question From A U.S / U.K Dual National

[email protected] (Ben Jessel) wrote in message news:...
    > Thanks for that.
    >
    > I don't have a social security number, so I think I would need to apply for one.
    >

Interesting. If you don't have a US Social Security Number
then how have you been filing US tax returns up to now.
You are aware that all US citizens are subject to US
tax laws and must file tax US tax returns, even if they
don't live in the US and even if their income is not
from US sources, right?

The reason I'm asking is that a US citizen must use his
social security number when filing a tax return.

Stephen Gallagher
 
Old May 15th 2003, 5:25 am
  #7  
L D Jones
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Newbie Question From A U.S / U.K Dual National

Ben Jessel wrote:
    >
    > Thanks for that.
    >
    > I don't have a social security number, so I think I would need to apply for one.

I'm not sure that one is required to obtain the visa (I would have to
look at my copy of the forms).
 
Old May 15th 2003, 8:55 pm
  #8  
Ben Jessel
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Newbie Question From A U.S / U.K Dual National

Wow Stephen, now that's a new one on me!

I've stepped foot in america about 4 times in my life. Each time, for
about a week ( if that ). I was born in the U.K and my citizenship
comes from one of my parents who was born there. It seems a little
harsh that someone who has never lived in the U.S should be expected
to file his/her tax returns.
Still not that ignorance is an excuse in the eyes of the law.....do
you have any information pertinant as to whom I should contact about
this?

Thanks

Ben

[email protected] (Stephen Gallagher) wrote in message news:...
    > [email protected] (Ben Jessel) wrote in message news:...
    > > Thanks for that.
    > >
    > > I don't have a social security number, so I think I would need to apply for one.
    > >
    >
    > Interesting. If you don't have a US Social Security Number
    > then how have you been filing US tax returns up to now.
    > You are aware that all US citizens are subject to US
    > tax laws and must file tax US tax returns, even if they
    > don't live in the US and even if their income is not
    > from US sources, right?
    >
    > The reason I'm asking is that a US citizen must use his
    > social security number when filing a tax return.
    >
    > Stephen Gallagher
 
Old May 16th 2003, 12:48 am
  #9  
L D Jones
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Newbie Question From A U.S / U.K Dual National

Ben Jessel wrote:
    >
    > Wow Stephen, now that's a new one on me!
    >
    > I've stepped foot in america about 4 times in my life. Each time, for
    > about a week ( if that ). I was born in the U.K and my citizenship
    > comes from one of my parents who was born there. It seems a little
    > harsh that someone who has never lived in the U.S should be expected
    > to file his/her tax returns.
    > Still not that ignorance is an excuse in the eyes of the law.....do
    > you have any information pertinant as to whom I should contact about
    > this?

You could start with the IRS (US equivalent of Inland Revenue) section
at the Embassy. This situation is common and it is likely that you do
not owe any tax. In terms of your wife's US visa you will have to file,
at a minimum, the last 3 year's US tax returns.
 
Old May 16th 2003, 8:47 am
  #10  
Ben Jessel
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Newbie Question From A U.S / U.K Dual National

Thanks for your help.

I have to admit to being really surprised by the tax issue! I had
imagined that if you had never had a social security number, and never
worked in the U.S you wouldn't have to return a tax return, only once
you got a social security number and started to be potentially covered
by national insurance.

Then again, I guess, if you were really sneaky, you could only live in
the U.S when you became unemployed in U.K....so I guess I can start to
understand why. Still, I'm surprised that the IRS never tracked me
down!

-b

L D Jones wrote in message news:...
    > Ben Jessel wrote:
    > >
    > > Thanks for that.
    > >
    > > I don't have a social security number, so I think I would need to apply for one.
    >
    > I'm not sure that one is required to obtain the visa (I would have to
    > look at my copy of the forms).
 
Old May 16th 2003, 4:51 pm
  #11  
Stephen Gallagher
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Newbie Question From A U.S / U.K Dual National

    > > > I don't have a social security number, so I think I would need to apply for one.
    > > >
    > >
    > > Interesting. If you don't have a US Social Security Number
    > > then how have you been filing US tax returns up to now.
    > > You are aware that all US citizens are subject to US
    > > tax laws and must file tax US tax returns, even if they
    > > don't live in the US and even if their income is not
    > > from US sources, right?
    > >
    > > The reason I'm asking is that a US citizen must use his
    > > social security number when filing a tax return.
    > >
    > > Stephen Gallagher

    > Wow Stephen, now that's a new one on me!
    >
    > I've stepped foot in america about 4 times in my life. Each time, for
    > about a week ( if that ). I was born in the U.K and my citizenship
    > comes from one of my parents who was born there. It seems a little
    > harsh that someone who has never lived in the U.S should be expected
    > to file his/her tax returns.
    > Still not that ignorance is an excuse in the eyes of the law.....do
    > you have any information pertinant as to whom I should contact about
    > this?

Check the IRS website for their Publication 54 - Tax Guide
for US Citizens and Resident Aliens Abroad.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p54.pdf

Yes, the US is quite unusual in this taxation policy.
The only other country that I'm aware of that imposes
a tax liability based solely on citizenship is the
Philippines. Nearly every other country bases their
tax liability based on residency or on source of income.
Many people will argue for it and others against it.
Still, it is currently the law for US citizens.

So, while you may find that you should be filing a
US tax return each year, you will also probably discover
that you don't actually owe any US tax. There are
exemptions and exclusions to eliminate double taxation,
although each person's case is different. I'm a dual
US and Canadian citizen who has lived in Canada for the
past eight years, and while I've had to file a US return
each year, I've never had to pay any US tax on my income
during that time.

You may want to locate and talk to a tax specialist who
deals with US citizens residing in the UK (even if they are
dual citizens), about your situation. Also the US Internal
Revenue Service has a branch at the US Embassy in London.

I believe that if you find that you should have been filing
returns up to now, that the IRS may require you to file returns
for up to the last seven years, but if you don't owe any taxes
you probably won't have any penalties. For this reason,
you may want to locate a tax specialist first.

Also, I believe that you do need to submit a social security
number when applying for a US passport.

Good luck,

Stephen Gallagher
 
Old May 16th 2003, 5:08 pm
  #12  
L D Jones
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Newbie Question From A U.S / U.K Dual National

Ben Jessel wrote:
    >
    > Thanks for your help.
    >
    > I have to admit to being really surprised by the tax issue! I had
    > imagined that if you had never had a social security number, and never
    > worked in the U.S you wouldn't have to return a tax return, only once
    > you got a social security number and started to be potentially covered
    > by national insurance.
    >
    > Then again, I guess, if you were really sneaky, you could only live in
    > the U.S when you became unemployed in U.K....so I guess I can start to
    > understand why. Still, I'm surprised that the IRS never tracked me
    > down!

Stephen's reply is much more comprehensive than mine. I think the IRS
simply doesn't have the manpower to track down everyone
 
Old May 17th 2003, 10:39 pm
  #13  
Stephen Gallagher
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Newbie Question From A U.S / U.K Dual National

    > > I have to admit to being really surprised by the tax issue! I had
    > > imagined that if you had never had a social security number, and never
    > > worked in the U.S you wouldn't have to return a tax return, only once
    > > you got a social security number and started to be potentially covered
    > > by national insurance.
    > >
    > > Then again, I guess, if you were really sneaky, you could only live in
    > > the U.S when you became unemployed in U.K....so I guess I can start to
    > > understand why. Still, I'm surprised that the IRS never tracked me
    > > down!
    >
    > Stephen's reply is much more comprehensive than mine. I think the IRS
    > simply doesn't have the manpower to track down everyone

Basically, that's correct. In general, if a person
held US citizenship but he lived abroad his entire
life and never made himself known to the US
tax system, then the IRS would never really find
out about him. So, even though he is supposed to
be filing returns, there's not much they can
do if they don't know about him, and they've got
more important things to do than going to hunt down
US citizens abroad who may not know that they are
supposed to be filing returns, especially since
those people probably will not owe any US taxes.

Stephen Gallagher
 
Old May 19th 2003, 8:47 am
  #14  
Ben Jessel
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Newbie Question From A U.S / U.K Dual National

Good good! Thanks for your help. ( and contribution to a minor heart
attack while I excavated my tax returns from under the sofa.... )

I wonder, however, whether they'll notice when I apply for a Social
Security Number......! It seems doubtful.

-b

[email protected] (Stephen Gallagher) wrote in message news:...
    > > > I have to admit to being really surprised by the tax issue! I had
    > > > imagined that if you had never had a social security number, and never
    > > > worked in the U.S you wouldn't have to return a tax return, only once
    > > > you got a social security number and started to be potentially covered
    > > > by national insurance.
    > > >
    > > > Then again, I guess, if you were really sneaky, you could only live in
    > > > the U.S when you became unemployed in U.K....so I guess I can start to
    > > > understand why. Still, I'm surprised that the IRS never tracked me
    > > > down!
    > >
    > > Stephen's reply is much more comprehensive than mine. I think the IRS
    > > simply doesn't have the manpower to track down everyone
    >
    > Basically, that's correct. In general, if a person
    > held US citizenship but he lived abroad his entire
    > life and never made himself known to the US
    > tax system, then the IRS would never really find
    > out about him. So, even though he is supposed to
    > be filing returns, there's not much they can
    > do if they don't know about him, and they've got
    > more important things to do than going to hunt down
    > US citizens abroad who may not know that they are
    > supposed to be filing returns, especially since
    > those people probably will not owe any US taxes.
    >
    > Stephen Gallagher
 

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