GOA - Buyer Beware!

Old May 14th 2007, 12:20 pm
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Default Re: GOA - Buyer Beware!

Originally Posted by Douglas M
Hi a_f_d

Total confusion all round as a result of your reply.

As i understand it you can ( could in the case of freeholds) for FNs register either a 58 month max lease or a transfer of freehold. The registrar concerned in my case was the sub registrar at panjim

The two documents i signed and registered are entitled " Deed of Lease" and "Deed of Sale". They were registered on two seperate occassions, the lease first.

The Deed of Lease contains an option to buy clause and is the type of document i referred to in my last post.

There is also the register of the Mamlatdar, which is a kind of Goan magistrate and land registry.

In what way is the document you refer to different to the documents i have described and with whom would you register such a document?

I can understand someone checking either register to see if there was an existing freehold interest or who was the registered owner and every leaseholder who has been foolish enough to pay the freehold price up front should regularly do so.

I would also be grateful if you would answer my outstanding questions.

regards

douglas
my reply to leavinggoa
I wasn't aware that an Agreement of Sale was registerable. I was under the impression that it gave you a legal entitlement until the Deed of Sale was drawn up.
seems to have disappeared into the ether, and on checking back I see I didn't answer all of your questions, so:

Yes I am a FN
I have paid for an appartment in Goa for which I have an Agreement for Sale (aka Agreement to Sale) which has been looked over by two independant attorneys who state (as leavinggoa suggests) that it gives me a "legal entitlement" until the Deed of Sale is drawn up.
I am retired.
I visited Goa recently and will be returning later this year for 'an indefinite period'.
I have an 'X' visa (it says so!)

To answer leavinggoa:
ianalb my understanding (but what do I know, I've only been looking into this for about 5 years and am still getting different answers every time I ask) is that an Agreement of Sale can be registered, that in some states it must be registered, that the 'centre' wants to/ may already have made registration compulsory for all transfer of property documents including Powers of Attorney - see
http://rajyasabha.nic.in/book2/repor...79threport.htm
that when you register an Agreement of Sale you pay 1% stamp duty which is offset against the 4% you pay when you [eventually] register your title deeds.

For anyone interested there is information and unbounded confusion available at:
http://www.helplinelaw.com/docs/bareact.shtml
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Old May 14th 2007, 1:11 pm
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Default Re: GOA - Buyer Beware!

[QUOTE=old man;4772920][B]
[B]
The issue has been stired up by a local politician that many foreign nationals have illegally acquired vast parcles of land and running businesses on tourist visas and all this has upset the locals.
FEMA provision[COLOR="Blue"][DO NOT contain any reference to the type of visa, so the statements in the presss that foreign national on tourist visas cannot purchase do not have any legal basis, according to Advocates !!

Hi All, I do find this interesting, why would FEMA make a proviso about visas, and what are the Advocates thinking of? We all know that it's 183 days in the country blah blah blah etc etc, and tourist visas are 180 days, hence FEMA had no reason to make a provision for something that fundamentally cannot be linked together, as for the Advocates, well the same applies, TVs will always be -3, simple maths.
It's like allowing smoking in pubs on the Moon, can't get there, so it's of no help.
Just a thought while I'm out of the trench:
What has started to come out more and more in various articles, threads is the linking of the presence of 'undesirables' to the purchase of land/property, the halting of registrations,visa changes,the Indian Home office, RBI, FEMA and local government.
I have started to wonder if they are now trying to clear up 'a mess' by using that old adage "Kill em all and let God sort them out". There is/has been "allegedly" a large quantity of Black money flowing into the country for the purchase of property etc. This could be what they are actually trying to get sorted out and everybody else has got caught in the collateral damage. As I say just a thought. Head down.
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Old May 14th 2007, 2:01 pm
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Default Re: GOA - Buyer Beware!

[QUOTE=TONY P;4778410]
Originally Posted by old man
[B]
[B]
The issue has been stired up by a local politician that many foreign nationals have illegally acquired vast parcles of land and running businesses on tourist visas and all this has upset the locals.
FEMA provision[COLOR="Blue"][DO NOT contain any reference to the type of visa, so the statements in the presss that foreign national on tourist visas cannot purchase do not have any legal basis, according to Advocates !!

Hi All, I do find this interesting, why would FEMA make a proviso about visas, and what are the Advocates thinking of? We all know that it's 183 days in the country blah blah blah etc etc, and tourist visas are 180 days, hence FEMA had no reason to make a provision for something that fundamentally cannot be linked together, as for the Advocates, well the same applies, TVs will always be -3, simple maths.
It's like allowing smoking in pubs on the Moon, can't get there, so it's of no help.
Just a thought while I'm out of the trench:
What has started to come out more and more in various articles, threads is the linking of the presence of 'undesirables' to the purchase of land/property, the halting of registrations,visa changes,the Indian Home office, RBI, FEMA and local government.
I have started to wonder if they are now trying to clear up 'a mess' by using that old adage "Kill em all and let God sort them out". There is/has been "allegedly" a large quantity of Black money flowing into the country for the purchase of property etc. This could be what they are actually trying to get sorted out and everybody else has got caught in the collateral damage. As I say just a thought. Head down.
Hi Tony P

I agree that there is a policy of demonising FNs on the part of some locals , pressure groups and politicians. In addition there is evidence of both developers and lawyers adopting a divide and rule strategy in goa.

This has worked to a certain degree as many FNs are smugly telling themselves(and us occasionaly) that they will be ok becaause their development/ agreement/ cult is different and they are therefore in some way not living in the lunatic assylum along with the rest of us.( for lunatic assylum read india)

I agree with you on the misleading attorney statement also, you cannot be deemed resident on a tourist visa. It is what it says on the tin - TOURIST. No more no less.

I have recently come to the conclusion that the issuing of x visas to FNs by IHC london for the purpose of property purchase up to mid 06 was a mistake on their part. It shouldnt have happened, they have since realised their mistake and have chosen to rectify it by a covert operation to both restrict new issue and deny renewal. There is maybe three years of existing x visas left to run and after that period the slate will be wiped clean. Disposal of the properties currently registered in the name of the FNs will follow.

Dont expect an official annoncement though , the last thing an indian will do is lose face.

regards

douglas
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Old May 14th 2007, 2:14 pm
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Default Re: GOA - Buyer Beware!

Originally Posted by a_f_d
my reply to leavinggoa

seems to have disappeared into the ether, and on checking back I see I didn't answer all of your questions, so:

Yes I am a FN
I have paid for an appartment in Goa for which I have an Agreement for Sale (aka Agreement to Sale) which has been looked over by two independant attorneys who state (as leavinggoa suggests) that it gives me a "legal entitlement" until the Deed of Sale is drawn up.
I am retired.
I visited Goa recently and will be returning later this year for 'an indefinite period'.
I have an 'X' visa (it says so!)

To answer leavinggoa:
ianalb my understanding (but what do I know, I've only been looking into this for about 5 years and am still getting different answers every time I ask) is that an Agreement of Sale can be registered, that in some states it must be registered, that the 'centre' wants to/ may already have made registration compulsory for all transfer of property documents including Powers of Attorney - see
http://rajyasabha.nic.in/book2/repor...79threport.htm
that when you register an Agreement of Sale you pay 1% stamp duty which is offset against the 4% you pay when you [eventually] register your title deeds.

For anyone interested there is information and unbounded confusion available at:
http://www.helplinelaw.com/docs/bareact.shtml
Hi a_f_d

Thank you for your response and confirmationof your status. You have obviously done a lot of homework on the legal and technical issues, but dont appear to have lived there long enough to realise that the place is essentialy dysfunctional. Thats the important bit.

I can see where you are coming from now on attorney and other forms of registration. The authorities are encouraging it, as they see delay as stamp duty evasion. ( mostly by indians)

If you havnt already registered your freehold it is highly unlikely that you ever will. Renewal of your x visa will also be a major hurdle.

regards

douglas
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Old May 14th 2007, 3:28 pm
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Default Re: GOA - Buyer Beware!

[QUOTE=Douglas M;4778663]
Originally Posted by TONY P

Hi Tony P
I agree that there is a policy of demonising FNs on the part of some locals , pressure groups and politicians. In addition there is evidence of both developers and lawyers adopting a divide and rule strategy in goa.
Hi Douglas
I think that they are trying to remove a "criminal" element but they have to lump everybody in with them so that it doesn't appear targeted. Wouldn't want to upset people now, would we?
I also believe that some of the developers are starting to get concerned about cancellations, because they aren't using their own money for their projects (If it is theirs, even more worrying) I know they use 'purchasers' money for off plan, but there are a lot of costs before they get to that point.
I also wonder if the pet lawyers have PI and what may happen to them in the event of claims against them for losses caused by their advice. I know it could be 15 years, but the courts can get a move on when they want to and there is always somebody who wants to make a name.
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Old May 14th 2007, 4:06 pm
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Default Re: GOA - Buyer Beware!

[QUOTE=TONY P;4779126]
Originally Posted by Douglas M
Hi Douglas
I think that they are trying to remove a "criminal" element but they have to lump everybody in with them so that it doesn't appear targeted. Wouldn't want to upset people now, would we?
I also believe that some of the developers are starting to get concerned about cancellations, because they aren't using their own money for their projects (If it is theirs, even more worrying) I know they use 'purchasers' money for off plan, but there are a lot of costs before they get to that point.
I also wonder if the pet lawyers have PI and what may happen to them in the event of claims against them for losses caused by their advice. I know it could be 15 years, but the courts can get a move on when they want to and there is always somebody who wants to make a name.
Hi Tony,

I think they have plenty of criminals of their own in india, they dont need to import them. The authorities are not that tactical or sophisticated anyway.Having been interviewed by special branch as part of my visa renewal application, ill assure you there is nothing special about them.They just seemed to have their feet up on the same grubby desks and were reading the same newspapers as most of the govt officials i came across . The authorities are more concerned about property price inflation and national security.

Unless you have evidence to the contrary, at the moment i feel the property market is still bouyant in goa and a few FN cancellations would soon be soaked up by pios and nris. When we have the worldwide crash in all markets of course, india will then be hit hard as there is always a flight to quality and india aint quality. Im hoping to be able to sell before it happens ( if i still own it that is).

If you ever tried to make a complaint against an indian lawyer i am sure you would come up against "not losing face" at all levels .The system is corrupt and dysfunctional anyway so i wouldnt even think about it.

I am fortunate in some ways in that my goa experience is behind me, all i have to do is try and sell my house and move on. You guys have the adventurein front of you for the most part.

regards

douglas
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Old May 14th 2007, 5:25 pm
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Default Re: GOA - Buyer Beware!

Originally Posted by old man

FEMA provision[DO NOT contain any reference to the type of visa, so the statements in the presss that foreign national on tourist visas cannot purchase do not have any legal basis, according to Advocates !!

Hi Everyone,
Just a quickie for those who still dont get it!!!!
The High Commission of India gives the following definition for the tourist visa.

Tourist Visa-This is a short term visa for the purpose of holiday or visiting relatives.

http://www.hcilondon.org/visa.htm

Im afraid to state the obvious but anyone who has bought property on a tourist visa is asking for trouble.
In fact to echo what Douglas and others have said, FNs are not wanted as permanent residents in India(Douglas' story surely shows this).

If you have a PIO Card or OCI then go ahead (you can legally purchase immoveable property on these.)Otherwise hold onto your money and enjoy your holidays in India without being conned into the current property fiasco.

It sounds to me like some people are trying to look for a "oh yes you can" clause when there simply isnt one.

Regards,
Remy
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Old May 14th 2007, 6:04 pm
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Unhappy Re: GOA - Buyer Beware!

Originally Posted by Remy-Ireland
Hi Everyone,
Just a quickie for those who still dont get it!!!!
The High Commission of India gives the following definition for the tourist visa.

Tourist Visa-This is a short term visa for the purpose of holiday or visiting relatives.

http://www.hcilondon.org/visa.htm

Im afraid to state the obvious but anyone who has bought property on a tourist visa is asking for trouble.
In fact to echo what Douglas and others have said, FNs are not wanted as permanent residents in India(Douglas' story surely shows this).

If you have a PIO Card or OCI then go ahead (you can legally purchase immoveable property on these.)Otherwise hold onto your money and enjoy your holidays in India without being conned into the current property fiasco.

It sounds to me like some people are trying to look for a "oh yes you can" clause when there simply isnt one.

Regards,
Remy
Hi, Remi
As you have read in past thread, we are one of the "lucky" ones and have the property registered in our names, but are still having hassle with the Directorate of Enforcement.

On the visa front, I had an e-mail from friends in Goa to-day and they said that the Office in Panjim is sending people back to London to get their visa's renewed (very expensive visa) and then they are only being given 180 day ones. We are going to hang on until end September, as our 5 year x-visa has to be renewed, but we won't hold our breath on that.

Does anybody know if we have to renew the visa immediately it runs out, or can we wait a few months?

As point of interest, guess what, the River Princess is still on the beach in
Candolim.
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Old May 14th 2007, 8:40 pm
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Default Re: GOA - Buyer Beware!


Hi Remy
Do you know how much it costs to get a Person of Indian Origin card? I have heard two different figures: £215.00 and £640.00. Do you have the latest information? The High Commission for India (London) website does say £640.00. Is that the latest according to your information?
Best wishes
Chandu
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Old May 14th 2007, 9:12 pm
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Default Re: GOA - Buyer Beware!

Originally Posted by chanduchristian
Hi Remy
Do you know how much it costs to get a Person of Indian Origin card? I have heard two different figures: £215.00 and £640.00. Do you have the latest information? The High Commission for India (London) website does say £640.00. Is that the latest according to your information?
Best wishes
Chandu

Hi Chandu,

A PIO Card costs 215.00 pounds and is valid for 15 years and 110.00 pounds for children under 18 years also valid for 15 years.

http://www.hcilondon.net/service-fee.html#pio

Cheers,
Remy

Last edited by Remy-Ireland; May 14th 2007 at 9:22 pm. Reason: to add link
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Old May 15th 2007, 1:55 am
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Default Re: GOA - Buyer Beware!

Does anybody know if we have to renew the visa immediately it runs out, or can we wait a few months?
If you intend to stay out of India for a while, renew just before you want to return.
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Old May 15th 2007, 2:10 am
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Default Re: GOA - Buyer Beware!

European drug cartels target Goa

From yesterday's Herald,

http://oheraldo.in/node/24696
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Old May 15th 2007, 2:22 am
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Default Re: GOA - Buyer Beware!

Originally Posted by noni
Hi, Remi
As you have read in past thread, we are one of the "lucky" ones and have the property registered in our names, but are still having hassle with the Directorate of Enforcement.

On the visa front, I had an e-mail from friends in Goa to-day and they said that the Office in Panjim is sending people back to London to get their visa's renewed (very expensive visa) and then they are only being given 180 day ones. We are going to hang on until end September, as our 5 year x-visa has to be renewed, but we won't hold our breath on that.

Does anybody know if we have to renew the visa immediately it runs out, or can we wait a few months?

As point of interest, guess what, the River Princess is still on the beach in
Candolim.
Hi Noni,

Reading between the lines, it would appear that x visas are being replaced by tourist visas. Please correct me if i am wrong as i wouldnt want to misinform.

If so , the important issue is that your freinds will lose residency and all the priviliges that go with it.

On a personal note thank you for telling your story and for providing valuable info.

regards

douglas
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Old May 15th 2007, 2:41 am
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Default Re: GOA - Buyer Beware!

Originally Posted by leavinggoa
European drug cartels target Goa

From yesterday's Herald,

http://oheraldo.in/node/24696
Hi leavinggoa,

This is almost a reprint of an article i saw a year or so ago in one of the local papers. How much of it is true is debateable, but it does help with the xenophobia.The thought of white prostitutes in fishnets standing on street corners in goa and trying to look sort of normal and brown ( but available), is quite amusing.

As i have said before national security is one of their main drivers, they cannot even deal with their own crime and terrorism , so demonising of and blanket exclusion of FNs is the solution.

regards

douglas
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Old May 15th 2007, 5:20 am
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Default Re: GOA - Buyer Beware!

Originally Posted by Douglas M
Hi leavinggoa,

This is almost a reprint of an article i saw a year or so ago in one of the local papers. How much of it is true is debateable, but it does help with the xenophobia.The thought of white prostitutes in fishnets standing on street corners in goa and trying to look sort of normal and brown ( but available), is quite amusing.

As i have said before national security is one of their main drivers, they cannot even deal with their own crime and terrorism , so demonising of and blanket exclusion of FNs is the solution.

regards

douglas
Hi all,

Below is a link to a similar article from theTimes

Difficult to see how douglas could be seen as security threat though.

Maybe when i am wearing my ninja suit ?

douglas

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...how/131756.cms
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