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South Africa – would we be silly ?

South Africa – would we be silly ?

Old Jun 26th 2010, 10:36 am
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Default Re: South Africa – would we be silly ?

Thanks Alfresco & Tegwyn,

Must admit it is really not looking so attractive. If my wife has to start a new business that in itself takes a lot of time and energy and can take two years plus to get going so it’s a long-term commitment from that perspective.

At this point it is looking like the highest scoring factor SA has is the weather.

It is a major decision and consideration as you all no doubt understand.

A few folk we have spoken to have said they would recommend going but be prepared to leave at anytime which is not really what we are looking for. There seems to be a concern for the country, post WC.

If we had loads of cash and left assets here and went to SA for the adventure maybe different. But we don’t have loads of dosh

Not ruling it out at this point but am surprised at the cost of living which if we consider alternative destinations offer way less risk.

Wasn’t really thinking of moving before this potential opportunity came along. Part of me is still tempted to pursue.

Talk about split personalities
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Old Jun 26th 2010, 3:02 pm
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Default Re: South Africa – would we be silly ?

If there is any possibility of a decision making trip then you should do that. It will help to see for yourself.
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Old Jun 26th 2010, 3:19 pm
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Default Re: South Africa – would we be silly ?

Originally Posted by ToDo
Thanks Alfresco & Tegwyn,

Must admit it is really not looking so attractive. If my wife has to start a new business that in itself takes a lot of time and energy and can take two years plus to get going so it’s a long-term commitment from that perspective.

At this point it is looking like the highest scoring factor SA has is the weather.

It is a major decision and consideration as you all no doubt understand.

A few folk we have spoken to have said they would recommend going but be prepared to leave at anytime which is not really what we are looking for. There seems to be a concern for the country, post WC.

If we had loads of cash and left assets here and went to SA for the adventure maybe different. But we don’t have loads of dosh

Not ruling it out at this point but am surprised at the cost of living which if we consider alternative destinations offer way less risk.

Wasn’t really thinking of moving before this potential opportunity came along. Part of me is still tempted to pursue.

Talk about split personalities
Originally Posted by Tegwyn
If there is any possibility of a decision making trip then you should do that. It will help to see for yourself.

I concur. The only way you'll be able to decide whether living and working in S.A. is within your acceptable limits, is to 'go and see'.

(trying not to sound too geeky!)
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Old Jun 27th 2010, 10:24 am
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Default Re: South Africa – would we be silly ?

http://www.news.com.au/world/aussie-...-1225884743088

I must admit – reports like this make me think

What I question is why they had to rape – if they were stealing because they are poor fair enough but there seems to be a different angle on South African crime that I have been reading on various sites.

Is there a media gag in South Africa regarding violent crimes like these or is it because of the World Cup?

My thoughts are that if a local hotel over there have a task to provide secure lodgings for their guests and are obviously aware of the local threats etc how can anybody be safe anywhere without having personal protection on some kind of crime radar
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Old Jun 27th 2010, 1:07 pm
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Default Re: South Africa – would we be silly ?

South Africa is very motivated to try contain stories such as these during the WC. It is unfortunate that these types of crimes rarely hit the headlines anymore when it applies to locals, and many victims will turn to their armed response companies than the police, for they will get little in terms of protection or resolution.

I mentioned to you earlier that law enforcement has seriously deteriorated and getting progressively worse. As such, deterrents that would restrain much of that criminal motivation no longer exists. There is crime of opportunity (theft) but the biggest issue that is cause for concern is the hate crimes committed as well. Very little has been done by the government to try control it, and I think it has reached a point that even with the most valiant of effort, they will be unsuccessful. The borders are pourous and the influx of nationals with criminal intent are rampant. That is not to say the home grown variant aren't equally as motivated to hate crime. There is a reason why there has been a huge exodus of South Africans to other parts of the world and their message should be heeded.

I'll say this, Southern Africa is not for the meek of heart, and should you decide to go, it should be with a full comprehension of the opportunities and risks both you and your family will be facing.
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Old Jun 27th 2010, 7:25 pm
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Default Re: South Africa – would we be silly ?

Originally Posted by ToDo
Is there a media gag in South Africa regarding violent crimes like these or is it because of the World Cup?
No, of course not. This isn't North Korea!!

There has been very little crime - comparatively - during the world cup. The more intelligent question is "can this be maintained after the world cup"? Probably not - but it would be a better country if it could.
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Old Jun 28th 2010, 10:26 am
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Default Re: South Africa – would we be silly ?

Re your wife's business - what line of business would she want to get into?
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Old Jun 28th 2010, 8:28 pm
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Default Re: South Africa – would we be silly ?

Originally Posted by ededed
No, of course not. This isn't North Korea!!

There has been very little crime - comparatively - during the world cup. The more intelligent question is "can this be maintained after the world cup"? Probably not - but it would be a better country if it could.
What do ascribe that to? Ed?
I've aslo noticed less crime in iol and 24, but thats also borne out by your local CPF website,
Think they have gone on Holiday?
declared a moratorium?
I mean, JZ DID ask them to be good for 4 weeks.
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Old Jun 29th 2010, 6:31 am
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Default Re: South Africa – would we be silly ?

Originally Posted by Daxk
What do ascribe that to? Ed?
I've aslo noticed less crime in iol and 24, but thats also borne out by your local CPF website,
Think they have gone on Holiday?
declared a moratorium?
I mean, JZ DID ask them to be good for 4 weeks.
Well, there are cops everywhere (still fat, lazy and taking bribes though) but I think the high profile fast court system (people jailed for years - just 3 days after the crime was committed) has made the bad 'uns stop and think. If they can do it now, why not when everyone has left?

We'll see - fingers crossed. It certainly FEELS safer....
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Old Jun 29th 2010, 11:23 am
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Default Re: South Africa – would we be silly ?

Originally Posted by ToDo
Thanks Woocus,
Seriously
What would be the bonus of South Africa then outside the weather.
Have you ever tried living in continuously hot weather, or have you just holidayed in it? After a few years in Cape Town I started to find it incredibly tiring. It slows you down mentally and physically. You feel dirty all the time. Also forget about those long summer evenings you're accustomed to. It's dark early. When it's light enough to do a spot of gardening it's too hot to.

I concur with the other posters. I moved to SA in 1995, but moved back to the UK a couple of years ago with two young kids. I just see the environment and prospects as being much better here than over there for them. Many of our SA friends see it the same way.

People are too much encouraged to run down the UK. Whereas for most people in the world it would be a dream come true. Conversely people here are given far too rosy a view of SA -that vibrancy is only skin deep.
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Old Jun 29th 2010, 6:01 pm
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Default Re: South Africa – would we be silly ?

Originally Posted by woocus
I"m SA born, lived and loved living in the UK, only came back cause of OH, live in the Cape and have own business.
Short version.
Cape Town northern suburbs beautiful and safe, Somerset West 55km from CT superb, gated houses anything from 1.5m to 25m Rands - safe. Living costs expensive - need about 30 to 40KR after tax to live comfortably. Schools pblic and private generally very good, especially in suburbs.
Safety is being aware at all times and dont go anywhere stupid, especially at nite. Restaurants good to very good.
i have my own business, simple to set up and oprate - Bee only comes in at more than 50 - 100 employees and if you want to deal with BEE companies - your wife starting out will have no trouble there.
Keep your options open to return quickly if neccessary, rent, as opposed to buy your house if shortish term stay, Cape Town is very viable.
Johannesburg is more lucrative but more prone to safety issues, massive developments and expansion. Live and work in the upper class suburbs and you should be ok, but I wouldnt.
Durban hot and humid and lots of cockroaches - but the folk are very old colonial, curries to die for.
I'd move to Matfield/Tenterden in Kent, work in London and spend my spare time enjoying Europe. Nuff said.
I lived in S.Africa for 23 years. My husband is S.African and my children were born there. We have been back in the Uk [N.Ireland] for 9 years and are moving to live in Spain in August this year.

I would just like to make one point .
People who have been brought up in the Uk have no concept of what the crime is like in S.Africa. They find it hard to imagine that even when there is a crime sometimes the police never arrive.
I loved S.Africa for all those years untill it became impossible to have a normal life. When you lose your freedom then it does not matter if you are living in a beautiful country because you cannot enjoy it. You are constantly looking over your shoulder and on your guard and eventually it just wears you out .
We had 2 bad experiences ,myself and my kids when Tony my husband was overseas. A friend of mine was held at knife point and tied to a chair for 30 mins while they discussed wither to finish her off or not .
I could tell you other horror stories that happened in the more affluent suburbs but there is no point.

It broke my heart to leave but my husband and I will never go back .

Sorry to be negative but there are other beautiful countries in the world that have nice climates that are safe .
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Old Jun 29th 2010, 6:28 pm
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Default Re: South Africa – would we be silly ?

Originally Posted by kathyd
I lived in S.Africa for 23 years. My husband is S.African and my children were born there. We have been back in the Uk [N.Ireland] for 9 years and are moving to live in Spain in August this year.

I would just like to make one point .
People who have been brought up in the Uk have no concept of what the crime is like in S.Africa. They find it hard to imagine that even when there is a crime sometimes the police never arrive.
I loved S.Africa for all those years untill it became impossible to have a normal life. When you lose your freedom then it does not matter if you are living in a beautiful country because you cannot enjoy it. You are constantly looking over your shoulder and on your guard and eventually it just wears you out .
We had 2 bad experiences ,myself and my kids when Tony my husband was overseas. A friend of mine was held at knife point and tied to a chair for 30 mins while they discussed wither to finish her off or not .
I could tell you other horror stories that happened in the more affluent suburbs but there is no point.

It broke my heart to leave but my husband and I will never go back .

Sorry to be negative but there are other beautiful countries in the world that have nice climates that are safe .
I agree with your sentiments. I wouldn't risk the safety and education of my 7 year, let alone our own safety as parents.

It only takes one 'incident' which will devastate your lives forever. I'm not saying it can't happen anywhere else in the world, but the chances are so much higher there in S.A.

The average criminal there has no value or regard for human life.
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Old Jun 29th 2010, 7:40 pm
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Default Re: South Africa – would we be silly ?

Hi Kathyd and welcome. The sad thing about your experiences are that you are one of very many. It is hard to explain to folk that have never been there or had those two weeks of bliss on holiday. Reality of everyday life is never experienced or comprehended. Adults can read and made a reasonably informed opinion but taking children there I think is something that needs to be seriously reconsidered. It is something to behold when my extended family come here to visit. They are agitated, and nervous because there is no security between my front door and the street. A lock or two but no bars, no walls, no vicious dogs, no big security gates and alarms and all that stuff that is for basic protection. They can't get over people jogging down the streets, kids on bikes up and down for hours at a time. Mothers with prams taking their little ones, and their mutts for walks. People sitting on their front porches watching the world go by and waving at you as you pass. This is not a gated community. I remember a time in SA when these things were not even an issue either as I would disappear to see my friends for hours on end and my parents did not stress about it. They knew if they called a few neighbours, someone would have seen me heading in whatever direction and knew where to track me down.

I know this is not the world many live in now, but even with added security within neighbourhoods that need it, it is nothing like living on constant alert. It is stressful and harmful to the health. Not only that, it becomes a pattern of living without the true concept of how unhealthy a lifestyle it has become. I don't think I would do well returning anymore as I have lost that edge. Far too laid back now.

The good news Kathy is that one day, that homesickness simply evaporates. I do look back on SA with affection but the blight on that is the many awful things that have happened to those there that are near and dear to me.

I hope one day it will turn around but I doubt it will happen in my lifetime.
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Old Jun 30th 2010, 8:20 pm
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Default Re: South Africa – would we be silly ?

Originally Posted by Tegwyn
Hi Kathyd and welcome. The sad thing about your experiences are that you are one of very many. It is hard to explain to folk that have never been there or had those two weeks of bliss on holiday. Reality of everyday life is never experienced or comprehended. Adults can read and made a reasonably informed opinion but taking children there I think is something that needs to be seriously reconsidered. It is something to behold when my extended family come here to visit. They are agitated, and nervous because there is no security between my front door and the street. A lock or two but no bars, no walls, no vicious dogs, no big security gates and alarms and all that stuff that is for basic protection. They can't get over people jogging down the streets, kids on bikes up and down for hours at a time. Mothers with prams taking their little ones, and their mutts for walks. People sitting on their front porches watching the world go by and waving at you as you pass. This is not a gated community. I remember a time in SA when these things were not even an issue either as I would disappear to see my friends for hours on end and my parents did not stress about it. They knew if they called a few neighbours, someone would have seen me heading in whatever direction and knew where to track me down.

I know this is not the world many live in now, but even with added security within neighbourhoods that need it, it is nothing like living on constant alert. It is stressful and harmful to the health. Not only that, it becomes a pattern of living without the true concept of how unhealthy a lifestyle it has become. I don't think I would do well returning anymore as I have lost that edge. Far too laid back now.

The good news Kathy is that one day, that homesickness simply evaporates. I do look back on SA with affection but the blight on that is the many awful things that have happened to those there that are near and dear to me.

I hope one day it will turn around but I doubt it will happen in my lifetime.
yes tegwyn ...it is very sad,such a beautiful country with so many problems.
When I had my children there and we lived in Cape Town I think I was becoming a nervous wreck. Both my daughters were very blonde and attracted alot of attention. White children were being lifted and it became a nightmare watching thier every move and where they were in the garden.
If you have never lived in a situation like that then it is hard to imagine what it is like to have to know where your kids are at every second because you are scared of them being lifted.

When British people go to Cape Town on Holiday they go to the waterfront and then they do the garden route. They never really get into the heart of living there.
Cape Town for all its beauty is know as Rape Town and has the highest figures of rape then any other capital in the world . When gangs break into houses and steal they usually finsih off the people in the house. If there are females there they get raped...and sometimes men as well.
S.Africa itself has overtaken Columbia with the highest crime rate worldwide.

Why on earth would anyone bring thier kids up in a society like that?
Kids have no freedom .they have to be ferried everywhere as the parents are too scared to let them go on thier own .

I have a friend in S.Africa who has a son who is 13 and he has not learnt how to ride a bike? Small garden and kid has no freedom to ride around the neighbourhood.

So to the person on this forum... TODO ... thinking of taking up a job there and moving your family...ask yourself one thing....

Why have millions of S.Africans left the country?
Who in thier right mind would leave such a beautiful country with a nice climate to live in ..say the UK?

It must be bad!
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Old Jul 2nd 2010, 9:08 am
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Default Re: South Africa – would we be silly ?

Very interesting and frightening thread. My husband was offered a very well paid job in J'Burg last year which after research and talking about it we declined because of safety concerns. I went to see a Dr. here who was from SA and I told him about why we declined. He was rather flippant about it and said "well, we all know people who have been murdered, don't we?" Well no, we most certainly do not! I never got the chance to ask him why he was in the UK. We have questioned our decision several times because the money was so good but after reading the above posts, I don't think we will any more. I would NOT go.
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