Tech Director Lon > SF relocation questions
Apr 20th 2014, 7:32 am
#31
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Re: Tech Director Lon > SF relocation questions
By the way, "gross up" mean that they pay you enough in moving expenses such that after tax they give you the amount they promised. E.g. if you were in the 25% tax bracket they would give you $12,500 so that after tax you would receive the $10,000 promised. As in your case the employer is paying your expenses directly you don't need it done that way.
Apr 20th 2014, 7:33 am
#32
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Re: Tech Director Lon > SF relocation questions
I think you are expecting UK style benefits in a US environment. That's not to say you shouldn't try for them, but they might be seen as unreasonable or just strange. Also the style of your letter is very British, and might also seem strange or might work to your benefit, depending who's reading it.
My comments on content:
How many vacation days are they offering? Four flights to London.. are you staying a week each and expecting four weeks of vacation? 20 days is a lot in the US, not to mention it signals to them that you will schedule vacations and take them, things which, sadly, are sometimes frowned on in tech in the US. As your colleagues in SF whether they take all their vacation days each year!
The relocation package price is reasonable and having to pay it back in full in the first year if you leave is standard (although not if they terminate you without cause - you'd want them to clarify). When you mention wanting to change the terms you are indicating to them that you're not sure you want to stay. That's honest but it might not make them want to make exceptions for you.
I think if there's anything I'd want change it would be a guarantee in writing that they would apply for a greencard for you in one year, subject to job performance. They're right that you have to make peace with the insecurities of being on a visa, that's just the way it is.
I also think if you're not sure after three months it might not be the best move for you, but only you can decide that. Also it sounded like you might not be married yet; in case you aren't aware you will have to marry your girlfriend for her to come with you (in the future).
Good luck with your decision!
My comments on content:
How many vacation days are they offering? Four flights to London.. are you staying a week each and expecting four weeks of vacation? 20 days is a lot in the US, not to mention it signals to them that you will schedule vacations and take them, things which, sadly, are sometimes frowned on in tech in the US. As your colleagues in SF whether they take all their vacation days each year!
The relocation package price is reasonable and having to pay it back in full in the first year if you leave is standard (although not if they terminate you without cause - you'd want them to clarify). When you mention wanting to change the terms you are indicating to them that you're not sure you want to stay. That's honest but it might not make them want to make exceptions for you.
I think if there's anything I'd want change it would be a guarantee in writing that they would apply for a greencard for you in one year, subject to job performance. They're right that you have to make peace with the insecurities of being on a visa, that's just the way it is.
I also think if you're not sure after three months it might not be the best move for you, but only you can decide that. Also it sounded like you might not be married yet; in case you aren't aware you will have to marry your girlfriend for her to come with you (in the future).
Good luck with your decision!
That's the kind of perspective / debate I was hoping to spark.
The senior team here is primarily British but most have neen here long enough to think in US employment terms. I want to be here for a year or more, but am trying to think a few chess moves ahead in case the job is untenable or it is putting too much strain on my relationship.
Vacation is relatively good here - 20 days. I plan on using it; although visits to the UK I plan to work some time from the UK office to minimise use of vacation days. One thing's for certain; I'm not seeing my girlfriend for only 20 days in the next year(!)
Many have been spot on here. I plan to contact the company tomorrow and explain to them I will be turning down the offer. If they move it in the right direction and it turns into a 'great deal', so be it.
Apr 20th 2014, 7:34 am
#33
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Re: Tech Director Lon > SF relocation questions
By the way, "gross up" mean that they pay you enough in moving expenses such that after tax they give you the amount they promised. E.g. if you were in the 25% tax bracket they would give you $12,500 so that after tax you would receive the $10,000 promised. As in your case the employer is paying your expenses directly you don't need it done that way.
Apr 20th 2014, 7:54 am
#34
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Re: Tech Director Lon > SF relocation questions
Yes, I meant they are reimbursing you directly for your expenses (in the form of giving you an advance and then requiring you to provide receipts) rather than just giving you a (taxable) lump sum and making you sort it out with the tax man later. It's much easier/better for you the way they're doing it (or would be, if you take them up on it 
).
).
Apr 20th 2014, 11:15 am
#35
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Re: Tech Director Lon > SF relocation questions
$180k for a job that pays £88k in London sounds like they're trying it on. I was on £48k as a senior dev in London and got $110k when I transferred to NYC. Bear in mind I requested the transfer and so what I got was a bit under the going rate at the time. Also SFO, whilst broadly comparable to NYC does command a bit higher salaries - I know Salesforce in SFO are offering $140k to senior devs, and my brother is making $180k with twitter as a senior program manager. If you're director level and they're as anxious to get you over there as they seem, then I wouldn't settle for a penny under $200k if. I were you.
Also you say the SFO team for your company is "in mutiny". That doesn't sound good! What's going to happen if that isn't settled? - you might find the company will just shutter the whole SFO tech operation. Bear in mind that when you work, as you appear to, for a company that does development in the US and the EU the US end is always going to be more vulnerable to layoffs as it's much cheaper and easier to fire people here (I speak from experience!). I'd strongly suggest that you use Glassdoor to find out what people are saying about the place, and research the going rate for your job in the area.
Also you say the SFO team for your company is "in mutiny". That doesn't sound good! What's going to happen if that isn't settled? - you might find the company will just shutter the whole SFO tech operation. Bear in mind that when you work, as you appear to, for a company that does development in the US and the EU the US end is always going to be more vulnerable to layoffs as it's much cheaper and easier to fire people here (I speak from experience!). I'd strongly suggest that you use Glassdoor to find out what people are saying about the place, and research the going rate for your job in the area.
Apr 20th 2014, 11:54 am
#36
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Re: Tech Director Lon > SF relocation questions
That's going to be a hard sell.
What might work is asking for "emergency" flights home. It'll be a benefit they likely will never have to pay, but if your mum got hit by a bus and you need to fly home right this minute, that flight could easily cost you $5-10K last minute.
What might work is asking for "emergency" flights home. It'll be a benefit they likely will never have to pay, but if your mum got hit by a bus and you need to fly home right this minute, that flight could easily cost you $5-10K last minute.
Apr 20th 2014, 12:40 pm
#37
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Re: Tech Director Lon > SF relocation questions
If we're unable to agree these or similar amendments, I would like to offer my sincere thanks for the opportunity to work for [company name] SF. In this event, if you would like me to return on a further temporary basis in order to help deliver [Project X worth $1.7m], and the requested re-architecture of [Project Y worth $600k], I would be very happy to serve.
I don't really see how you can return on a temporary basis to work for them without a visa.
IF the company has brought you over to the US to work illegally for the last 3 months....then I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole.
I don't really see how you can return on a temporary basis to work for them without a visa.
IF the company has brought you over to the US to work illegally for the last 3 months....then I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole.
Last edited by Jerseygirl; Apr 20th 2014 at 2:40 pm. Reason: Typo
Apr 20th 2014, 12:58 pm
#38
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Re: Tech Director Lon > SF relocation questions
What's it all about, Alfie?
Seriously though, to OP, whatever package you manage to get out of them be seriously careful about going to work in a place where not only is morale at floor level, but you are supposed to fix it. Unless you are going to be the top boss there with full power to do whatever you like, it is very likely that people there are miserable for a reason, and in a still weak economy are not finding other jobs to go to. The phrase "toxic work environment" comes to mind. It could easily make you miserable too, and you will be in the wrong country and without the person/people you love. I would have alarm bells going off, frankly.
Apr 20th 2014, 3:05 pm
#39
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Re: Tech Director Lon > SF relocation questions
I hope I'm not too late in saying this, but DO NOT send that email!
Speaking as a journalist and someone who spent several years as a computer magazine editor as well as someone who has written many a business letter, there are certain things you never do..
For a start, you never, ever say you are not going to accept the offer (even if you mean it!). It's far better to say something like "I'm seriously considering it but..." and then state the differences between what they offer and what you would like.
Second, speak English, dammit! For example, don't expect others to know what 'Echelon' means. Assume the basics, but be careful to make so too simple as to make the reader think you're treating them like an idiot. No-one likes to have to have a dictionary handy when they read something!
Speaking as a journalist and someone who spent several years as a computer magazine editor as well as someone who has written many a business letter, there are certain things you never do..
For a start, you never, ever say you are not going to accept the offer (even if you mean it!). It's far better to say something like "I'm seriously considering it but..." and then state the differences between what they offer and what you would like.
Second, speak English, dammit! For example, don't expect others to know what 'Echelon' means. Assume the basics, but be careful to make so too simple as to make the reader think you're treating them like an idiot. No-one likes to have to have a dictionary handy when they read something!
Apr 20th 2014, 6:08 pm
#40
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Re: Tech Director Lon > SF relocation questions
+1
A simple, "I have reviewed the terms of the offer and would like to propose a few amendments" followed by a list of the changes should suffice.
No offense intended, but from reading the original I suspect that the writer may not have English as his first language and is, as a result, expressing things in a way that seem unnecessary convoluted to a native English speaker.
A simple, "I have reviewed the terms of the offer and would like to propose a few amendments" followed by a list of the changes should suffice.
No offense intended, but from reading the original I suspect that the writer may not have English as his first language and is, as a result, expressing things in a way that seem unnecessary convoluted to a native English speaker.
Apr 20th 2014, 6:18 pm
#41
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Re: Tech Director Lon > SF relocation questions
I hope I'm not too late in saying this, but DO NOT send that email!
Speaking as a journalist and someone who spent several years as a computer magazine editor as well as someone who has written many a business letter, there are certain things you never do..
For a start, you never, ever say you are not going to accept the offer (even if you mean it!). It's far better to say something like "I'm seriously considering it but..." and then state the differences between what they offer and what you would like.
Second, speak English, dammit! For example, don't expect others to know what 'Echelon' means. Assume the basics, but be careful to make so too simple as to make the reader think you're treating them like an idiot. No-one likes to have to have a dictionary handy when they read something!
Speaking as a journalist and someone who spent several years as a computer magazine editor as well as someone who has written many a business letter, there are certain things you never do..
For a start, you never, ever say you are not going to accept the offer (even if you mean it!). It's far better to say something like "I'm seriously considering it but..." and then state the differences between what they offer and what you would like.
Second, speak English, dammit! For example, don't expect others to know what 'Echelon' means. Assume the basics, but be careful to make so too simple as to make the reader think you're treating them like an idiot. No-one likes to have to have a dictionary handy when they read something!
There are only certain items that are tax deductible from relocation expenses and they are fairly limited (things like flights, first nights accommodation, shipping costs etc).
The payback clause for leaving within the first year and prorated in the second is standard and quite frankly very reasonable. I'll be perfectly honest, I wouldn't hire someone that tried to negotiate that. The company is making an investment in moving you and they require assurances you're not just using them for a visa and then going to take another job when you're here. Transferring a visa can be easier than getting a new one. I'd say if you're not comfortable with this clause then don't take the job.
Apr 20th 2014, 6:27 pm
#42
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Re: Tech Director Lon > SF relocation questions
Look at it from the company side:
there's a crappy situation and you/they hope you can fix it;
they're going to pay you less than the going rate for a local;
if you give up and go home - you have to pay back expenses;
if the crappy situation doesn't get fixed - you have to go back to no job and pay back expenses;
no green card promise so no other options for you.
They're not exactly taking a big risk are they?
I would ask for;
green card application as soon as possible - that will give you options if all goes pear shaped
100% pay back of expenses in the first year then a sliding scale throughout the 2nd year so that at the end of year 2 you owe nothing.
The same pay as locals.
there's a crappy situation and you/they hope you can fix it;
they're going to pay you less than the going rate for a local;
if you give up and go home - you have to pay back expenses;
if the crappy situation doesn't get fixed - you have to go back to no job and pay back expenses;
no green card promise so no other options for you.
They're not exactly taking a big risk are they?
I would ask for;
green card application as soon as possible - that will give you options if all goes pear shaped
100% pay back of expenses in the first year then a sliding scale throughout the 2nd year so that at the end of year 2 you owe nothing.
The same pay as locals.
Apr 20th 2014, 6:35 pm
#43
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Re: Tech Director Lon > SF relocation questions
[QUOTE=md95065;11226844]+1
A simple, "I have reviewed the terms of the offer and would like to propose a few amendments" followed by a list of the changes should suffice.
No offense intended, but from reading the original I suspect that the writer may not have English as his first language and is, as a result, expressing things in a way that seem unnecessary convoluted to a native English speaker.[/QUOTE]
+1
My first impression on reading it was that the wording may have an asian or sub-continent influence.
A simple, "I have reviewed the terms of the offer and would like to propose a few amendments" followed by a list of the changes should suffice.
No offense intended, but from reading the original I suspect that the writer may not have English as his first language and is, as a result, expressing things in a way that seem unnecessary convoluted to a native English speaker.[/QUOTE]
+1
My first impression on reading it was that the wording may have an asian or sub-continent influence.
Apr 20th 2014, 6:39 pm
#44
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Re: Tech Director Lon > SF relocation questions
Call me paranoid but it seems to me that OP's company want rid of him and are trying to avoid UK redundancy/unfair dismissal procedures by enticing him into a hopeless situation in the US and then using "at will" employment to fire him after a few months "'because there's been no improvement".
Sounds like the sort of sneaky trick my previous employer would pull, and if they hadn't already shuttered their US tech operations I'd be asking him if he was working for them...
Sounds like the sort of sneaky trick my previous employer would pull, and if they hadn't already shuttered their US tech operations I'd be asking him if he was working for them...
Apr 20th 2014, 6:39 pm
#45
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Re: Tech Director Lon > SF relocation questions
I).
The payback clause for leaving within the first year and prorated in the second is standard and quite frankly very reasonable. I'll be perfectly honest, I wouldn't hire someone that tried to negotiate that. The company is making an investment in moving you and they require assurances you're not just using them for a visa and then going to take another job when you're here. Transferring a visa can be easier than getting a new one. I'd say if you're not comfortable with this clause then don't take the job.
The payback clause for leaving within the first year and prorated in the second is standard and quite frankly very reasonable. I'll be perfectly honest, I wouldn't hire someone that tried to negotiate that. The company is making an investment in moving you and they require assurances you're not just using them for a visa and then going to take another job when you're here. Transferring a visa can be easier than getting a new one. I'd say if you're not comfortable with this clause then don't take the job.