Tech Director Lon > SF relocation questions
#1
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Seeking advice: Tech Director Lon > SF relocation questions
Hi there
I'm a technology director (not the boss, I report into Director of Tech Ops who reports to CTO) being offered a relocation package from London to SF offices.
I'm at the end of a three-month secondment to SF which was all about trying it out, and now I've received the offer to stay.
I'm torn about accepting but I can't quite figure out exactly why. I've wanted to come to SF for years, and love the place.
SF offer details:
Downtown SF location, $180k base
No equity, unspecified bonus at end of year paid the following year
(Parking, 90 days corp housing, $10k relocation cheque, 2 return London flights per year) > all of which is fully refundable to the company if I am let go or quit within first year, then pro-rated for second year
At-will / zero notice employment contract ("normal" for CA; non-negotiable)
Current London situ:
£88k
3 months' notice and UK protection laws around no whimsical firing etc.
1 house on which I pay £800 mortgage (£300 interest, plus capital top-up)
1 house which is rented out (mortgage is covered)
Girlfriend is staying in London for approx 12 months, which is affecting my reticence too, but we've talked through giving it a go.
I'm inclined also to ask about working from the UK office every now and then so my US vacation isn't used up purely by being in London but that we can vacation together.
My queries:
- Although it's an increase of pocketed money vs London, I feel like it's not a top-rate package for the Bay area. The company can't compete with Facebook, Google etc. but me having to refund everything if I leave within the first year could run into a $20k bill. Is this in the normal ballpark?
- I'm concerned about taxation in the US on my UK properties. Especially if I move to the US and then end up wanting / needing to sell my UK house, I'm told I'll have to pay cap gains tax in the UK and also some form of tax on any profit in the US too. Is this correct? Can I transfer it into a family member's name to avoid this? It's a concern because I'm mulling selling the house but may have to move to the US before I've decided.
- The company has stated they won't sponsor my Green Card application at first but will consider it after 1y. When I point out they hold all the cards and I could have to leave the country at a day's notice since I'll be on an L1, they point to how that's just a normal consideration and I have to find peace with it.
Does anyone have any advice?
My gut feeling if I accept is that ultimately I may end up changing my mind after 6 months partly because a) the package may be lower than my peers and/or I could be pressured to work evenings / weekends at threat of firing or b) because of course I will miss my family. If that happens, I don't want the whole affair to have cost me $10s of thousands out of pocket.
On the flip side, I love SF and it may take me another few years to find a gig that will permit me (visa-wise) to give it another shot.
It's a good problem to have, but a hard one nonetheless. Any advice would be very gratefully received.
Thanks very much
Anork
I'm a technology director (not the boss, I report into Director of Tech Ops who reports to CTO) being offered a relocation package from London to SF offices.
I'm at the end of a three-month secondment to SF which was all about trying it out, and now I've received the offer to stay.
I'm torn about accepting but I can't quite figure out exactly why. I've wanted to come to SF for years, and love the place.
SF offer details:
Downtown SF location, $180k base
No equity, unspecified bonus at end of year paid the following year
(Parking, 90 days corp housing, $10k relocation cheque, 2 return London flights per year) > all of which is fully refundable to the company if I am let go or quit within first year, then pro-rated for second year
At-will / zero notice employment contract ("normal" for CA; non-negotiable)
Current London situ:
£88k
3 months' notice and UK protection laws around no whimsical firing etc.
1 house on which I pay £800 mortgage (£300 interest, plus capital top-up)
1 house which is rented out (mortgage is covered)
Girlfriend is staying in London for approx 12 months, which is affecting my reticence too, but we've talked through giving it a go.
I'm inclined also to ask about working from the UK office every now and then so my US vacation isn't used up purely by being in London but that we can vacation together.
My queries:
- Although it's an increase of pocketed money vs London, I feel like it's not a top-rate package for the Bay area. The company can't compete with Facebook, Google etc. but me having to refund everything if I leave within the first year could run into a $20k bill. Is this in the normal ballpark?
- I'm concerned about taxation in the US on my UK properties. Especially if I move to the US and then end up wanting / needing to sell my UK house, I'm told I'll have to pay cap gains tax in the UK and also some form of tax on any profit in the US too. Is this correct? Can I transfer it into a family member's name to avoid this? It's a concern because I'm mulling selling the house but may have to move to the US before I've decided.
- The company has stated they won't sponsor my Green Card application at first but will consider it after 1y. When I point out they hold all the cards and I could have to leave the country at a day's notice since I'll be on an L1, they point to how that's just a normal consideration and I have to find peace with it.
Does anyone have any advice?
My gut feeling if I accept is that ultimately I may end up changing my mind after 6 months partly because a) the package may be lower than my peers and/or I could be pressured to work evenings / weekends at threat of firing or b) because of course I will miss my family. If that happens, I don't want the whole affair to have cost me $10s of thousands out of pocket.
On the flip side, I love SF and it may take me another few years to find a gig that will permit me (visa-wise) to give it another shot.
It's a good problem to have, but a hard one nonetheless. Any advice would be very gratefully received.
Thanks very much
Anork
Last edited by anork; Apr 19th 2014 at 8:43 pm. Reason: Title tweak
#2
Re: Tech Director Lon > SF relocation questions
There's only one person who can answer these questions and that is you. the package seems reasonable and many of the clauses are pretty standard. You have to decide if you can live with it all.
If it were me, I'd see if there was any way I could go over for a week or two and meet and spend some time with your new co-workers, bosses and environment. Although you can't actually work, you would at least see how the land lies, look into the housing situation and check out prices, etc. for yourself. Then you could at least make an informed decision.
Personally, I would hate to go through life saying "what if...?".
If it were me, I'd see if there was any way I could go over for a week or two and meet and spend some time with your new co-workers, bosses and environment. Although you can't actually work, you would at least see how the land lies, look into the housing situation and check out prices, etc. for yourself. Then you could at least make an informed decision.
Personally, I would hate to go through life saying "what if...?".
#3
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Re: Tech Director Lon > SF relocation questions
Thanks. I wasn't very concise but I've been in SF for three months checking it out, and am flying back to the UK tomorrow (ostensibly either to stay or to get my L1 visa)
If the consensus is that I would be fair asking for the refund to be pro-rated in the first year rather than a full refund, I'll try for it - but if that's absolutely standard I'd prefer not to sound greedy
If the consensus is that I would be fair asking for the refund to be pro-rated in the first year rather than a full refund, I'll try for it - but if that's absolutely standard I'd prefer not to sound greedy
#4
Re: Seeking advice: Tech Director Lon > SF relocation questions
If they're giving you cash, you'll be taxed on that, so have them gross it up.
Get greencard application in writing that they will do it after 12 months. Working a year or two before they begin is normal, but you want it in writing that they will do it at that point.
#5
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Location: Madison, Ct
Posts: 39
Re: Tech Director Lon > SF relocation questions
IMHO if after 3 months in SF you still can't decide if u want to relocate then I think you should stay in the UK.
My experience has been I know in short order if a place is "right" for me.
Everyone is different but the fact that you seem to be looking for a justifiable reason to move and stay Stateside doesn't bode well.
My experience has been I know in short order if a place is "right" for me.
Everyone is different but the fact that you seem to be looking for a justifiable reason to move and stay Stateside doesn't bode well.
#6
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Re: Seeking advice: Tech Director Lon > SF relocation questions
Yes, on the pay back but you can negotiate that.
If they're giving you cash, you'll be taxed on that, so have them gross it up.
Get greencard application in writing that they will do it after 12 months. Working a year or two before they begin is normal, but you want it in writing that they will do it at that point.
If they're giving you cash, you'll be taxed on that, so have them gross it up.
Get greencard application in writing that they will do it after 12 months. Working a year or two before they begin is normal, but you want it in writing that they will do it at that point.
What do you mean by "have them gross it up"?
Thanks
#7
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Re: Tech Director Lon > SF relocation questions
IMHO if after 3 months in SF you still can't decide if u want to relocate then I think you should stay in the UK.
My experience has been I know in short order if a place is "right" for me.
Everyone is different but the fact that you seem to be looking for a justifiable reason to move and stay Stateside doesn't bode well.
My experience has been I know in short order if a place is "right" for me.
Everyone is different but the fact that you seem to be looking for a justifiable reason to move and stay Stateside doesn't bode well.
#8
Re: Tech Director Lon > SF relocation questions
Take into account the tax you'll pay on the cash they give you.
#9
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 41,518
Re: Tech Director Lon > SF relocation questions
IMHO if after 3 months in SF you still can't decide if u want to relocate then I think you should stay in the UK.
My experience has been I know in short order if a place is "right" for me.
Everyone is different but the fact that you seem to be looking for a justifiable reason to move and stay Stateside doesn't bode well.
My experience has been I know in short order if a place is "right" for me.
Everyone is different but the fact that you seem to be looking for a justifiable reason to move and stay Stateside doesn't bode well.
#10
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Re: Tech Director Lon > SF relocation questions
Thanks. I have to provide receipts to show I spend the cheque on relocation costs, but anything else I can keep and was told it's that remainder which is taxed.
I was advised this period within which I must spend it on appropriate untaxable items is 90 days, and so I'm hoping I can just defer them giving me the cheque in the first place. I am assuming that even if I pay tax on the full $10k, I will end up having to refund the actual $10k and be doubly out of pocket.
I was advised this period within which I must spend it on appropriate untaxable items is 90 days, and so I'm hoping I can just defer them giving me the cheque in the first place. I am assuming that even if I pay tax on the full $10k, I will end up having to refund the actual $10k and be doubly out of pocket.
#11
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 41,518
Re: Tech Director Lon > SF relocation questions
Thanks. I have to provide receipts to show I spend the cheque on relocation costs, but anything else I can keep and was told it's that remainder which is taxed.
I was advised this period within which I must spend it on appropriate untaxable items is 90 days, and so I'm hoping I can just defer them giving me the cheque in the first place. I am assuming that even if I pay tax on the full $10k, I will end up having to refund the actual $10k and be doubly out of pocket.
I was advised this period within which I must spend it on appropriate untaxable items is 90 days, and so I'm hoping I can just defer them giving me the cheque in the first place. I am assuming that even if I pay tax on the full $10k, I will end up having to refund the actual $10k and be doubly out of pocket.
#12
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Re: Tech Director Lon > SF relocation questions
It's a possibility I have to consider. The place is undergoing a mutiny at the moment and part of my job will be to make it a more fulfilling, successful place to work. But I have to sail into that without being naive that some things may be out of my control.
#13
Re: Tech Director Lon > SF relocation questions
My main concern would be the part where you have to pay back the relocation package if they get rid of you. Seems a touch unfair. My terms (albeit 20 years ago!) were that I would have to repay it if I chose to leave, but it was forgiven if they terminated me.
Other than that it really is a personal choice. I agree with the "no regrets" approach that someone mentioned, but also the fact that if you've been there 3 months and are already thinking you may not make a year, it can't be a good sign. At 3 months, I suspect most folk are still in the honeymoon period...I know I was.
Other than that it really is a personal choice. I agree with the "no regrets" approach that someone mentioned, but also the fact that if you've been there 3 months and are already thinking you may not make a year, it can't be a good sign. At 3 months, I suspect most folk are still in the honeymoon period...I know I was.
#14
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Re: Tech Director Lon > SF relocation questions
My main concern would be the part where you have to pay back the relocation package if they get rid of you. Seems a touch unfair. My terms (albeit 20 years ago!) were that I would have to repay it if I chose to leave, but it was forgiven if they terminated me.
Other than that it really is a personal choice. I agree with the "no regrets" approach that someone mentioned, but also the fact that if you've been there 3 months and are already thinking you may not make a year, it can't be a good sign. At 3 months, I suspect most folk are still in the honeymoon period...I know I was.
Other than that it really is a personal choice. I agree with the "no regrets" approach that someone mentioned, but also the fact that if you've been there 3 months and are already thinking you may not make a year, it can't be a good sign. At 3 months, I suspect most folk are still in the honeymoon period...I know I was.
Thanks all for your sounding board provision so far!
#15
Re: Tech Director Lon > SF relocation questions
My main concern would be the part where you have to pay back the relocation package if they get rid of you. Seems a touch unfair. My terms (albeit 20 years ago!) were that I would have to repay it if I chose to leave, but it was forgiven if they terminated me.
Other than that it really is a personal choice. I agree with the "no regrets" approach that someone mentioned, but also the fact that if you've been there 3 months and are already thinking you may not make a year, it can't be a good sign. At 3 months, I suspect most folk are still in the honeymoon period...I know I was.
Other than that it really is a personal choice. I agree with the "no regrets" approach that someone mentioned, but also the fact that if you've been there 3 months and are already thinking you may not make a year, it can't be a good sign. At 3 months, I suspect most folk are still in the honeymoon period...I know I was.