robin1234

But, why wouldn't the normal UK rules extend to Scottish citizens? (To paraphrase the rest of the sentence that you truncated).

JAJ

It would be in line with past precedent for British citizenship to be removed from anyone becoming a Scottish citizen at independence unless that person had ties by way of birth, descent or residence with the remainder of the United Kingdom.

This would not conflict with the general principle of accepting dual citizenship.

The terms will be laid out in the (Westminster) Act that grants Scottish independence as of a particular date.

dunroving

I think this phrase is just the SNP taking the opportunity to get in a sarcastic dig at the Conservatives, TBH.

It's supposed to be an issue of Scottish or UK citizenship, but if I had a pound for every time I heard the words "Tory government" and "SNP" in the debates and news coverage, I could retire tomorrow.

JAJ

Why would a Scottish person, if a supporter of Independence, care about retaining the citizenship of what would at that point be a foreign country?


As for the EU, there's simply no precedent for a part of a member state to secede and the solution will be as much political as legal. From Scotland's point of view it is impossible to predict the outcome, so is there a Plan B? An independent Scotland may find its future better served outside the EU, but (for example) in the European Economic Area, like Norway. Or Iceland.

Same goes for currency union. It is impossible to predict the outcome, except that a currency union will only work if it serves the national interests of both Scotland and England. Which it may do. If it does not, then again Scotland needs a Plan B. Which could involve using the pound sterling unilaterally, as the Irish did for nearly 60 years after independence. And what would be wrong with a separate Scottish currency, anyway?

dunroving

I couldn't tell you what goes on in the head of Alex Salmond or other fiery nationalists. However, I personally know many people who are proud of being Scottish and British. For people like them, if a successful Yes vote subsequently deprived them of UK citizenship, it would be a disaster.

Why would Scottish independence make dual citizenship any different than other dual nationality situations (like people who are UK and US citizens?) - other than for the fiery nationalists I mentioned, of course. And even for them, there would be a method in the madness. Presumably, it would give them the pleasurable entitlement to vote against the Conservatives for the rest of their lives, as a UK citizen living in a foreign country.

JAJ

It would be up to the Westminster Parliament, which would no longer have Scottish members, to decide who the citizens of the remaining United Kingdom would be.

I cannot see why the United Kingdom would necessarily want a situation where immediately post independence, every Scottish citizen would also be a British citizen. So I would expect that there would be restrictions of some kind. As noted above, the default could be to remove British citizenship from those becoming Scottish citizens unless such a person was born in the remainder U.K. or had a parent or grandparent born there.

Parliament might also give those losing British citizenship at Scottish independence a time-limited option to make a declaration of re-acquistion or retention. Or it might not.

There are many options. The point for those in Scotland to understand is that post-independence, the Scottish Government and Parliament will control who is a Scottish citizen but will have no control over who is a British citizen.

Scottish unionists are still Scottish, so would presumably wish to be Scottish citizens first and foremost.

And even if the U.K. decides not to remove British citizenship from anyone, it will happen anyway over the long term, as those born in Scotland after Independence would be British citizens by descent (if they have a British born parent). Within 20 years there would be a generation born that would grow up not having British citizenship.

formula

Because the rest of that sentence was so silly I didn't think it was worth quoting. But as you insist......

Salmond seems to think that Scots could have all the privileges* that a UK passsport would give, to make it easier for an independant Scotland (and him). Just as he thinks other things such as they should be able to use sterling and that they shouldn't have any of the UK debts, they will be given all the oil revenues etc. All the things he thinks he can cherry pick to make it easy for himself.

His reason for saying the Scots should be given UK citizenship is that as the UK allows dual citizenship, that should mean that Scots should have UK/Scots citizenship. Of course the elephant in the room is that an independant Scotland wouldn't be part of the UK and therefore wouldn't have UK citizenship. As the relevant part of that sentence was that the UK would decide if they were allowed UK citizesnship (even though they aren't part of the UK) that was what I quoted as some seemed to think the Scots would just be given UK citizenship too. From what May has said, it seems Salmond is out of luck with that plan too.

There is nothing in the rest of the UK's favour to give Scots UK citizenship. Why would we want them in the UK claiming benefits from the UK instead of Scotland? Or taking jobs that any UK or EU citizen can do? Or letting them vote in the UK? Or letting them have all the benefits of free EU movement when Scotland won't be contributing to the EU as they will not be allowed to join the EU? etc.... Those highly skilled Scots who wanted to live in the UK or other EU countries, could apply for a visa, just as other non-EU citizens do.

* Some benefits of a UK Passport

• A right to live in the UK and claim benefits (Scotland already has more per capita given to them for their benefits and that doesn't include the Scots living in the rest of UK claiming benefits). Yes, Tax Credits are benefits too.
• A right to work in the UK and the EU.

• A right to enter many countries as non visa nationals.

Salmond is going to have his work cut out brokering deals with other countries for the Scots to be able to travel visa free on holiday, or work in their countries. Something it seems he was hoping to avoid.

Of course without that UK passport or citizenship of another country, Scots would have to return home and they then become the responsibilty of an independant Scotland. Any borrowing Salmond needs to support those returning Scots, or for trying to entice firms to take a risk and bring jobs to Scotland etc, would be at a very high interest rate as their rating would be shot because they will have a reputation of walking away from debts. A high interest rate too because they are a small new country with a new currency an no financial support from the EU. China might be interested, but it would be on their terms.

formula

And May seems to have made it clear that it will be Westminster that decides and not Salmond.

robin1234

You keep saying things like (I paraphrase) "... the UK giving Scots UK citizenship." Scots are now UK citizens, so, in your scenario, the UK would have to actually take action to deprive some "Scots" (definition of Scot??) of UK citizenship.
What's a Scot?
Person born in Wales, currently living in Scotland?
Person born in Scotland, currently living in England?
Person born in Scotland, currently living in Australia?
Person from a village in Northumberland, born in Scotland because nearest maternity unit was in Scotland (for instance)?
Probably dozens of different scenarios ... All of which would have to be spelled out in any legislation to be drawn up to deprive certain British citizens of their citizenship.
Also, what about the Irish example? As I understand it, all Irish and British citizens can freely live, work and vote in either country. This obviously predates the EU.

Sally Redux

I don't know what normally happens when countries secede; does citizenship change for the whole population?

penny farthing

Hi Rosalina,
to get back to your question......
If you take a look at the Citizens Advice Bureau website there is a lot of information there- or simply contact the National Insurance website and ask them.
You didn't work in Scotland or make any National Insurance Contributions so you would not qualify for the Basic State pension but there may be other financial support available for you.
Exchange rates can be a problem too with the strength variation in the currencies; so your Canadian pensions could change from month to month. Scotland is expensive I find, but lots of freebies for seniors do help but who knows how it will all look after September this year.
I would be inclined to wait until after the Independence vote; I think we will stay in UK but who knows. Good Luck PF

robin1234

Well exactly. And that must inevitably lead to invidious definitions, like the "Who is a Jew?" debate that has been going on in Israel for 60+ years.

On these threads I've asked a couple of times, what happened in the Czech and Slovak Republics with citizenship? But never got an answer.

There are examples from the British past, Ireland and India for instance, but of course the concept of citizenship was different in those days so that is not necessarily a guide.

dunroving

Like so much about independence and the white paper, the details are fuzzy, For example, where it says "We plan that British citizens habitually resident in Scotland on independence will be considered Scottish citizens", what does that mean (the underlined part)?

If it means only that I will be eligible for a Scottish passport if I want one, then fine. However, I don't see that the Scottish government gets to decide whether I have to be a Scottish citizen. There's no way I am giving up my UK citizenship or my UK passport just because I happen to have been living here for a while. Same for other "English" people I know who have been here for many years, have born and raised their "Scottish" children here and have "Scottish" grandchildren.

It could all become very divisive if people who consider themselves non-Scots are forced to lose their UK citizenship.

It's all hypothetical anyway. It isn't going to happen.

JAJ

From 1969, Czechoslovakia was a federation of two republics, the Czech Republic and Slovak Republic. Within the framework of Czechoslovak citizenship, there were two "internal" citizenships, one Czech and one Slovak.

When the country split in 1992-93, the citizenship of the new countries was primarily based on the existing internal citizenship. So a Czechoslovak citizen with "Czech" internal citizenship became a Czech citizen, and vice versa. There were provisions at the time to allow people to switch from one to the other if they desired.


From 1949 to 1982 the United Kingdom and Colonies formed a single unit for citizenship purposes. So every time a colony became independent, it was no different for citizenship purposes as to what will happen if Scotland becomes independent. The way it worked was in principle, quite simple:

- The new country legislated for who would be its citizens at independence; and
- The Independence Act for the territory contained provisions that withdrew Citizenship of the U.K. & Colonies from those becoming citizens of the new country unless such persons had specific ties to the United Kingdom itself, or a place which remained a colony.

So in general, most of those who became citizens of the new country lost British nationality. In some cases, people became citizens of the new country and kept British nationality. And those who did not obtain citizenship of the new country always retained British nationality.

Garbatellamike

now stop cluttering the debate with facts please - you'll spoil everything