durham_lad

I just checked and Vanguard do require a street address when opening a new account online.

fulwood

It's plain and simple you cannot convert to Roth once you have left US and reside in UK. But if dunroving came back for a year he would be able to do so. I am over time going to start converting my money into Roth..

durham_lad

Nun has done the research and reckons that under section 18.1 of the treaty ROTH conversions are treated like pension lump sums and are only taxable in the USA, but you need to have your ROTH set up ahead of time to be able to do ROTH conversions while in the UK.

http://britishexpats.com/forum/showt...highlight=Roth

http://britishexpats.com/forum/showt...highlight=Roth

Pulaski

Not necessarily. So long as your name, DOB, and SSN, tie together the address needs to exist, it doesn't necessarily need to have any documented usage, otherwise every time someone moved they would find it impossible to open new accounts, .... which is exactly when people are most likely to need new accounts. The likely problem would be with (true) PO Boxes which are commonly disallowed, but which UPS Store mailboxes conveniently circumvent if you use "Unit" or "Apt", and not "Box".

A few years ago I actually persuaded one bank's system to accept my address as "P0 Box" (P"zero" Box), when a PO Box address was prohibited!

dunroving

Not to flog a dead horse or anything, but I have read and participated in Nun's threads on Roths (which is why I am trying to get this sorted). Besides the two specific threads you linked to, it has been discussed at length in other posts, too.

I don't think there is anything in there that definitively says you have to set up your Roth before leaving the US. Although some people, like me, are experiencing difficulties getting a Roth set up from outside the US, there isn't anything in the law or tax regulations that seems to say you have to do it before leaving. That is the aspect I am trying to determine. Posts 42-50 (or thereabouts) in the second thread you linked to just about covers what I figured out to this point. JAJ's Post #10 above has come closest and is what I am balancing up against simply opening it by phone while I am in the US in May.

Certainly, I'd recommend anyone thinking of doing this to set it up before leaving, to avoid the hassle.

But I am hoping someone will come along with either "here is the definitive legal perspective that shows you can/can't do it" or "here is how I managed it".

Often on BE, we read "You can't do that" or "It has to be done this way" and eventually this perspective is determined to be without factual (regulatory, whatever) basis, and there are ways to achieve it. Opening a UK bank account from overseas is a prime example. People are always saying "It's impossible" whereas in reality, "It's not particularly straightforward, but it's possible, and here is how to do it" is the correct answer.

dunroving

Remind me to never play cards against you.

theOAP

Here is the definitive legal perspective that shows you can/can't do it:


(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)


I agree with your appraisal of the post from JAJ. Like most issues relating to tax involving anything or anyone foreign, there is usually little in the way of clearly defined rules but there are hundreds of conflicting statements found in various guidance. I would suggest it all depends on the appetite of the American organisation for your 'foreign' business. Remember, it's not personal.

Keep pursuing any available avenue. Someone may eventually cave in. It's your money, and it's not foreign. It's currently in good old Yankee dollars. It's only your address which is foreign.

durham_lad

I agree with you. In my post above I quoted, and was responding to, fulwood, who said "It's plain and simple you cannot convert to a Roth once you have left US and reside in UK." (I know that you have participated in nun's discussions).

The point I was making (to others who have not seen nun's ROTH discussion threads) is that you absolutely can do ROTH conversions from the UK. The question being debated here is whether you can establish a new ROTH account from the UK, without a US Street address.

Maybe I was misunderstanding what fulwood was saying.

fulwood

No you did not misunderstand me. I spoke with USAA whom I've banked with for 25 years. You simply cannot convert to Roth if living in UK. I know it doesn't make sense but that's what it is. Yet if dunroving came to US for a while, he could provide address and convert it. odd. I am only stating what USAA bankers told me. Doesn't mean I don't agree with policy. i have been searching for the "why" but God forbid searching IRS or OFAC is daunting..

durham_lad

Thanks for the clarification.

Vanguard told me that if I was in the UK I could continue trading with them as usual. I didn't specifically ask, "does that include IRA to ROTH conversions which I have been doing each year for the last 3 years?"

nun

Vanguard have also told me that I can trade on all my existing accounts as a UK resident, that would include IRAs, ROTH, 403b and brokerage accounts.

If you reside in the UK and have US IRA and ROTH accounts there is nothing to stop you from doing IRA to ROTH conversions. The amount converted is taxed by the US at your income tax rates, but is free of UK tax. Distributions from ROTH accounts are free of tax in the US and the UK.

http://www.ukustax.com/wp-content/up...-28-Oct-10.pdf

fulwood

good job. it sounds like dunroving can do it then.

Pulaski

The "USAA bankers" may just have been citing policy, not law/regulation. At the sales/ customer service end of the business it makes no difference "why" their employer won't do it, all they know is that "it's not possible". There may be all manner of reasons why USAA doesn't want to enable the conversion to a Roth, but it is quite possibly nothing to do with a law or regulation.

dunroving

Just wanted to dredge this thread up again as I have been yet again dealing with TIAA-CREF on this issue. The previous information I got from TIAA was that .. "The USA Patriot Act requires you to provide a current physical residential address in the U.S. when you open an investment account such as a Roth IRA. It should be the address where you reside and would receive correspondence. "

Having looked into the PA, I found the only text relating to address to be the following (from 31 U.S. Code § 5318 - Compliance, exemptions, and summons authority):

"(l) Identification and Verification of Accountholders.
(2) Minimum requirements. The regulations shall, at a minimum, require financial institutions to implement, and customers (after being given adequate notice) to comply with, reasonable procedures for:
…(A) verifying the identity of any person seeking to open an account to the extent reasonable and practicable;
(B) maintaining records of the information used to verify a person’s identity, including name, address, and other identifying information; and
(C) consulting lists of known or suspected terrorists or terrorist organizations provided to the financial institution by any government agency to determine whether a person seeking to open an account appears on any such list. “

- there is no requirement that the person opening the account is a US resident, only that their address is confirmed in order to verify their identify.

So, having unsuccessfully tried to send this via their non-functional Message Center (only 10% of messages guaranteed to actually send!) I called and spoke with a consultant who put me on hold for about 30 minutes while he went and talked with his pals.

he came back and tried to tell me no-one he talked to could remember opening an IRA for a non-resident (so what???) and that it was TIAA policy ... so now they have a different reason.

I asked them to send me a letter stating chapter and verse either the section of the Patriot Act that applies and/or a verbatim section of TIAA policy that is contained within TIAA documents. I'll let you know how that goes ...

For anyone returning to the UK, if you don't already have an IRA, open one just in case you need to use it after you return!!

theOAP

We've had this link previously in this thread, but it's been updated as of 8 January 2015. The problem is the information only concerns banks. There seems to be an appeal route if the institution is a "national" bank. For all financial institutions, it appears any reference to the Patriot Act requiring a US address is BS. Nonetheless, it remains the prerogative (excuse) of the FI to do whatever they wish regards accepting or rejecting customers in accordance to their own business model.

https://americansabroad.org/issues/b...ot-act-update/