Originally Posted by Steerpike

This is something that has hit me twice now in recent years at two different companies, relating specifically to IT System Administrators/Network Administrators, etc - not analysts, designers, etc. There have been a number of high-profile lawsuits in the past several years and it has given rise to much 'clarification' from HR types. This page briefly refers to a big problem they got into at EA (Electronic Arts) - a computer game producer that was notorious for 'requiring' its exempt employees to work long, sustained overtime prior to game release (the link is not a great one; I just don't have time to find better ones, but it was quite the story in the valley at the time and sent shock-waves through the community). I know several ppl who work there and it was a very real event.

I ignored the issue at a prior company; was forced by the HR person at my previous place to deal with it, and this time - we are so small that we use outside HR and they too are pushing us to classify our System Administrators as hourly and refuse to work with us if we don't follow their advice (liability issues). The issue comes down to questions about how much 'personal judgment' they exercise in the execution of their duties; if you spend more than 'x' amount of your day carrying out the instructions of others, you really can't be classified as exempt - according to the rules. And if you don't pay them at least $95k (California only - other states lower), you are almost 'guaranteed' to be hourly.

Ironically, my alternative - to hire contractors instead - has also been the subject of many lawsuits. Micro$oft got hit big time because it used 'contractors' to do what was essentially permanent employee work, and they were forced to grant stock options to these former contractors.

Originally Posted by Michael

The law is pretty basic and is designed to make sure that a person who is exempt must have an imaginative job and be able to perfom his/her job in a reasonable period of time (usually 40 hours per week average) if the time is managed efficiently. Usually this works very well for programers since usually most assignments can be performed averaging about 40 hours week. The problem of time management usually arises when programmers (by choice) spends too much time on other tasks not associated to the project, long lunches, excessive socializing, and just not getting serious about the assignment until near the end of the project and then long hours usually occur.

For over 30 years I worked as a software engineer (also software manager) and saw some programers work very hard producing 40,000 lines of rock solid difficult code in 6 months and other progamers in the group producing 2,000 lines of error ridden code in the same period of time. This occurred over and over again with the same people performing as always. The poor performers always seemed to have excuses as to why their code was so minimal and loaded with errors but it was always easy to determine why.

I can see possible problems with a System Administrators being exempt. First it is not the most imaginative job in the industry and if the employee is usually required to work 50-60 hours a week to complete his tasks, the job usually should not be considered exempt.

The laws are just trying to make sure that employers are not using the exempt labor laws to allow them to become slave drivers.

There has always been laws regulating the use of contractors instead of permanent employees. However, lawsuits have been more prevalent lately as companies have abused those laws (excessive use of outsourcing companies).

Originally Posted by snowbunny

SSDI and other private disability cover is very dependent on whether or not a doctor will certify you as disabled and unable to perform ANY work. And the disability claim must be renewed periodically until the beneficiary reaches 65.

I would imagine California doctors to be more sympathetic to their patients' plight, and more willing to jump the hoops and fill out paperwork, than their counterparts in other states.

My mother was on *private* LTD and it was a nightmare. Most disabled folk lack the money to hire a lawyer to pursue their case, or the money to pay for all the tests that the insurer insists upon having done.

Originally Posted by Steerpike

I know someone who has MS and had private LTD, and they refused to pay her, claiming you could NOT prove the disability. She fought it for a long time but gave up when the legal fees started to get scary and didn't want to risk the consequences of a lost case.

So I have personal experience of how difficult it can be to get benefits, and I also have personal experience of people seemingly 'playing the system'. I think overall the majority encounter the difficulties and only a few succeed at 'playing the system'.

Originally Posted by snowbunny

SSDI and other private disability cover is very dependent on whether or not a doctor will certify you as disabled and unable to perform ANY work. And the disability claim must be renewed periodically until the beneficiary reaches 65.

Originally Posted by Michael

Normally most SS disability benefits are requested for conditions that cannot be disgnosed by any test.

Originally Posted by Michael

That is one area where I totally disagree with the way that that SSA handles certain cases (SS disability must alway be filed for first). You would think that SSA would automatically grant disability for certain diseases after a certain time passes after the disease (MS, Altimers, and a few others) is detected. Usually it is known that those diseases progress at a certain rate and after the disease progresses to a certain stage, SS disabiity should automatically be given if requested

Originally Posted by Steerpike

I know at least two people, both programmer/analysts at one medium sized company (~500) in San Francisco, who are no longer working and are on some form of benefit program (I could not say whether it was SSI ... they may be on private disability insurance or govt. program). I worked there myself, know these people personally, and I have several friends STILL there, and they know these people well, and they have confirmed that they are still off work and on disability approx. 10 years later. This is not an assumption or opinion - it is a personally known fact. Their ONLY complaint is hand/arm/upper back issues, attributed to either RSI or carpal tunnel syndrome (I've heard both mentioned, and I can't tell you the difference). Whether their complaint is genuine or not I can't personally say; one was decidedly lazy and I suspect she was 'working the system', but - no one will ever admit to that.

If you wish to disbelieve me, go ahead, but I have no reason to lie. The company spent a LOT of money on 'ergonomic improvements' after these incidents ... everyone got adjustable keyboard trays, etc ... a trend that is strong now in the area.

Originally Posted by hockeyhairdo

the fact that the business below only exists in Canada, UK, US, Australia and NZ.


http://www.doctorsnotestore.com/


Is it because they "work" sooo hard in these countries?

Originally Posted by mayflower_compact

Sounds to me like you're just lazy!!!

Originally Posted by Tracym

SSDI requies that you cannot perform ANY work. Some (but not all) private disability insurance is for own profession though - if you can't work at your own profession you can collect it.

Originally Posted by snowbunny

I believe that's what I said -- that to get SSDI you must not be able to do ANY work. RSI won't qualify you for SSDI.

Secondly, someone who's that profoundly disabled will have a difficult time putting together the enormous burden of proof needed to win.

Thirdly, if a person can afford the doctors and lawyers needed to fight a protracted case, they are less likely to *need* SSDI.

I think the folks making decisions as to military disabilities have taken a few pages from the SSDI policy.... make it ridiculously hard to claim benefits and hope people go away or die.

Originally Posted by essexnick

Land of the Free (except healthcare) and the home of the brave....or should that be slave.

I am living in California. I own a house, live near the beach and the weather is great.
I am currently contracting and have been for the last 7 months. I have has only 3 day off in the last 1.5 years. This is mental. If I take a week off work or call in sick I dont get paid nada.

Get another job with benefits I hear you say! Well trying to find a permanent job here with health care, sick pay and vacation is like looking for a needle in a haystack. Salary is cheap and they dont offer nothing in the way of benefits. It's all long term contracting.

I had a job interview last month. They offered me a job paying $19 bucks per hour which is not that great when you have a mortgage. Also, they guy offered me 10 days vacation a year after the first 6 months of probabtion period. He thought that was a great package deal and seamed impressed with himself.
In my mind I was just laughing. 10 days is rubbish. When I was working in the UK for the NHS I had 29 days vacation + national holidays + free health care + what looks like unlimited sick time off as needed (none of this earning sick days). Granted, the NHS is more than most for the UK. Average is 21 to 25 days. But hey, that's still damn good. So stop moaning all you people living in the UK.

Anyway, my original point is that I am so tired all the time lately. I can't imagine working like this for another 30 years. Things need to change. American people need to change the way they work and push for better benefits. Just look at the film Sicko by Michael Moore. Agree there has to be a balance somewhere. I think the US is so far behind in the is respect.

In times like this I think to myself 'how much longer can I live like this' and 'is this way of life really worth it'. Yes I own a cheap house. Yes I live near the beach. Yes I have lots of nice weather. No I don't get the time to enjoy it.

To make things worse, with have a German exchange student here right now. He talks to me about having 2 weeks in Spain blah blah blah....2 weeks off at Christmas to go skiing etc. It makes me remember how great Europe is and how much they value your life and enjoyment.

Am I losing the plot here? Would maybe taking a week off work help? Would visiting the UK again for a week help me remember why I left? This county is Home of the brave....brave enough to be a slave...a slave to work.

I have to give here more time and hopefully find a job with 10 days holiday (ooooh big friggin deal) and see what happens.

Anyone else stuck in the US and feel like this? How does one get over it? Or maybe never?

Originally Posted by Steerpike

I'm in IT and we just hired a mid-level IT guy. We had to go through a huge bureaucratic process (for a company of 40) to determine whether this position was 'exempt' or not. Basically, we want to pay the guy well, and in return, have him work hard. Being IT, we know he's going to have to work nights/weekends, but being a fun company we will give him time off/comp time/etc, and we know there will be 'light days' where he can goof off/etc. But because of some new laws in the US (which I will loosely call, 'European style' laws ), all IT ppl have to be paid as non-exempt (hourly) unless you can 'prove' the position is 'exempt' (salaried).

Basically, if I have to hire this guy as an hourly, which involves timesheets, supervision, approvals for OT, sign-offs, etc - then it ain't gonna happen - we're a small startup and I don't have the time to 'manage' at that level; I'd rather bring in an outside contractor and literally pay him by the hour for work done. I work firmly on the principal of pay above market and expect a lot - and I make that clear in the interview (I asked the guy how much he wanted, and offered him 10% more b/c I wanted him to be happy and productive).

We finally got our HR advisers to agree the position was exempt, but not before a significant amount of effort. These laws were brought in to prevent abuses but they are also a significant burden to productivity.

Originally Posted by hockeyhairdo

instead of depserately defending both systems, why not move to a country where they value human life (Switzerland, Norway, Sweden, Japan)
The common denominator for these are, extremely high standard of life quality, long holidays, smart population (IKEA mad a few bucks)

Originally Posted by sunflwrgrl13

This is pretty interesting to know because my OH was a Systems Admin. I wonder how recent these laws were enacted because he was always exempt.