Toronto or going back to London after 5 yrs, so confused!
Apr 14th 2014, 4:24 am
#46
been there, done that
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2014
Location: Toronto
Posts: 56
Re: Toronto or going back to London after 5 yrs, so confused!
You are so right, especially after the olympics, the city looks so pretty! Every time we go back we are so impressed. But then, we live Toronto. Its not difficult to be impressed when you go somewhere else.
Last edited by phr1; Apr 14th 2014 at 4:28 am.
Apr 14th 2014, 4:25 am
#47
Born again atheist
Joined: Jul 2005
Location: Europe (to be specified).
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Apr 14th 2014, 4:38 am
#49
Éireann go Brách
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Location: White Man in Hammersmith Palais
Posts: 2,932
Re: Toronto or going back to London after 5 yrs, so confused!
It's been 5+ years since we left the UK and moved to Toronto. We were expecting our second baby at the time and had a 4 yr old.
We were living in London and had good jobs and a house we just finished renovating but we felt the pressure of the big city and cost of living and needed a change.
As We were pregnant we thought the timing is right and we should have our baby on the other side of the pond and start afresh. Immigration was a non issue as my partner has dual nationalities and carries Canadian citizenship, but have never lived in Canada.
We love London dearly and feel so proud and lucky to have lived there and experience the most inspiring, exciting city in the world. Our departure was a bit of an adventure, taking the opportunity to try new life experience in a place people always refer to as the land of opportunities, safe, clean, family friendly, nice kind of place with high quality of life.
5 years on we are not too convinced. Still questioning what to do and if to go back.We recognize great things about Canada and Toronto but it's far away from being the dream life. First of all it's so boring, we can't get over the fact that the city is so ugly (aesthetic is very important to us) and what property is selling for (what you buy for your money here is shocking). The American culture is so dominant and we find it difficult to associate with the culture all together. Even TV and radio.. It's all BBC in our house.
As individuals, the people are super nice and we have made lots of lovely friends. Our kids are very happy and have tons of friends and busy social life. School is pretty good (although I am not sure it's so different to what we will have in London). They still teach too much about Canada and so little about the world.
There is a lot to be said for live here and yes, overall we are financially better off and have good things going for us but the soul is suffering and we miss home and family.
Our oldest is now 9yr and and we have 5yr old. We are in a critical point of making a decision about moving or staying. Our main reason to stay is our son who might get a shock moving to London and dealing with society. We feel kids in London are thoughter and "street wise" in a way kids in Canada are not. He is a very sociable child and already know people there ( our family and friends all live there).
Second is the cost of living and being able to afford all the things we can give our kids here.
On the other hand, we dwell all the things we can't give our kids here.. Like being exposed to all that rich experiance that London and the UK has to offer. (We have exhausted the ROM and the AGO to death..) Denying them from being close to family and our closest friends and their kids. I hear my kids speak in this heavy Canadian accent and it do feel a bit sad.
Do we really want to bring them up as Canadains? We are so torn.
On the quality of live question my answer is that we work hard here as we did back home. We both have demanding jobs and work full time. We don't see the kids as much as we thought it would be , balanced work-life situation don't happen in Toronto, I think, if you have a full time job and two kids.
Sometime it feels like we work even harder here. Less holiday as well so even if we can afford to travel neither of us have tones of time to take off.
We are scared of moving back because we don't want to disturb our kids too much and get sucked into financial squeeze, also the fact that we would need to sell and buy a bigger house in London scare us as we are well aware of the property frensie that is going on at the moment in the Capital and worried what we will be able to afford near a good school.
If anyone experiencing the same situation please let us know what your thought are. We can not decide and every morning we feel completely differently about moving back. It's a turture! We are also running out of time. If we left it another year or two it will be even harder to move back and seems very unlikely unrooting a 10,11,12 yr old. It is this summer or never!
Toronto vs London. Who wins?
We were living in London and had good jobs and a house we just finished renovating but we felt the pressure of the big city and cost of living and needed a change.
As We were pregnant we thought the timing is right and we should have our baby on the other side of the pond and start afresh. Immigration was a non issue as my partner has dual nationalities and carries Canadian citizenship, but have never lived in Canada.
We love London dearly and feel so proud and lucky to have lived there and experience the most inspiring, exciting city in the world. Our departure was a bit of an adventure, taking the opportunity to try new life experience in a place people always refer to as the land of opportunities, safe, clean, family friendly, nice kind of place with high quality of life.
5 years on we are not too convinced. Still questioning what to do and if to go back.We recognize great things about Canada and Toronto but it's far away from being the dream life. First of all it's so boring, we can't get over the fact that the city is so ugly (aesthetic is very important to us) and what property is selling for (what you buy for your money here is shocking). The American culture is so dominant and we find it difficult to associate with the culture all together. Even TV and radio.. It's all BBC in our house.
As individuals, the people are super nice and we have made lots of lovely friends. Our kids are very happy and have tons of friends and busy social life. School is pretty good (although I am not sure it's so different to what we will have in London). They still teach too much about Canada and so little about the world.
There is a lot to be said for live here and yes, overall we are financially better off and have good things going for us but the soul is suffering and we miss home and family.
Our oldest is now 9yr and and we have 5yr old. We are in a critical point of making a decision about moving or staying. Our main reason to stay is our son who might get a shock moving to London and dealing with society. We feel kids in London are thoughter and "street wise" in a way kids in Canada are not. He is a very sociable child and already know people there ( our family and friends all live there).
Second is the cost of living and being able to afford all the things we can give our kids here.
On the other hand, we dwell all the things we can't give our kids here.. Like being exposed to all that rich experiance that London and the UK has to offer. (We have exhausted the ROM and the AGO to death..) Denying them from being close to family and our closest friends and their kids. I hear my kids speak in this heavy Canadian accent and it do feel a bit sad.
Do we really want to bring them up as Canadains? We are so torn.
On the quality of live question my answer is that we work hard here as we did back home. We both have demanding jobs and work full time. We don't see the kids as much as we thought it would be , balanced work-life situation don't happen in Toronto, I think, if you have a full time job and two kids.
Sometime it feels like we work even harder here. Less holiday as well so even if we can afford to travel neither of us have tones of time to take off.
We are scared of moving back because we don't want to disturb our kids too much and get sucked into financial squeeze, also the fact that we would need to sell and buy a bigger house in London scare us as we are well aware of the property frensie that is going on at the moment in the Capital and worried what we will be able to afford near a good school.
If anyone experiencing the same situation please let us know what your thought are. We can not decide and every morning we feel completely differently about moving back. It's a turture! We are also running out of time. If we left it another year or two it will be even harder to move back and seems very unlikely unrooting a 10,11,12 yr old. It is this summer or never!
Toronto vs London. Who wins?
Good luck mate.
Apr 14th 2014, 5:36 pm
#51
Forum Regular
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 37
Re: Toronto or going back to London after 5 yrs, so confused!
Cambridge is pretty expensive too these days...
Apr 14th 2014, 6:10 pm
#53
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Joined: Nov 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 8,649
Re: Toronto or going back to London after 5 yrs, so confused!
Thanks everyone for your thoughts.
My comment about the school referring to a general feel of provinciality. Looking inwards with a relative narrow and conservative perspective of the world.
Of course school should talk about Canada, but there is so much more on the agenda. Also singing the national anthem every morning kind of hint to that, especially when people in this city come from so many different backgrounds and reasons.
I still think that the education here is relatively at a higher level and I am pretty happy with it, I am just not convinced that it is much better than the UK to advocate for staying. This is just one of the things we were hearing about a lot before coming here. Education, health system and Opportunities.
So that was my point on education.
Health system - big YES for Canada. I think it is far better than the NHS.
We will have to stay as healthy as possible if we are going back.
Opportunities. Big topic. What does it actually means? On what level? Work? After school programmes? Getting the real sense of the world?.... I think, and correct me if I am wrong, if you would like your kids to be involved in some activity you will probably find that it London as well.
You may need to pay more, and there is my fear about the cost of living in the UK, but it's not like it doesn't exist, and you will have to make priories and create your own opportunities.
Sometime I feel its all a bit too much here and kind of competitive. Your success as a parent is measured by which programme you managed to sign up for, if you could be bothered waking up early enough in the morning to line up.
For jobs, I actually think Europe opens many more interesting opportunities than Canada. There is a limited market here.
If you are in the business however of opening random shops on Queen street (or Dundas?) that sell saleable things you're in the right place though.
Still think Canada is to be praised for these reasons:
Food. Love all the fresh stuff from the local farms in the summer. Great great veraity from all over the world. Amazing flavours and affordable
quality eating out. Organic is not gold.
Healthy lifestyle overall
Ski
Not worry about fashion
Less drinking (although a little bit more sometime could help some people here..)
People are active and celebrate nature
Summer
BBQ in the summer. Everyday..we actually vegetarians, but still..there is good fresh fish around...
My comment about the school referring to a general feel of provinciality. Looking inwards with a relative narrow and conservative perspective of the world.
Of course school should talk about Canada, but there is so much more on the agenda. Also singing the national anthem every morning kind of hint to that, especially when people in this city come from so many different backgrounds and reasons.
I still think that the education here is relatively at a higher level and I am pretty happy with it, I am just not convinced that it is much better than the UK to advocate for staying. This is just one of the things we were hearing about a lot before coming here. Education, health system and Opportunities.
So that was my point on education.
Health system - big YES for Canada. I think it is far better than the NHS.
We will have to stay as healthy as possible if we are going back.
Opportunities. Big topic. What does it actually means? On what level? Work? After school programmes? Getting the real sense of the world?.... I think, and correct me if I am wrong, if you would like your kids to be involved in some activity you will probably find that it London as well.
You may need to pay more, and there is my fear about the cost of living in the UK, but it's not like it doesn't exist, and you will have to make priories and create your own opportunities.
Sometime I feel its all a bit too much here and kind of competitive. Your success as a parent is measured by which programme you managed to sign up for, if you could be bothered waking up early enough in the morning to line up.
For jobs, I actually think Europe opens many more interesting opportunities than Canada. There is a limited market here.
If you are in the business however of opening random shops on Queen street (or Dundas?) that sell saleable things you're in the right place though.
Still think Canada is to be praised for these reasons:
Food. Love all the fresh stuff from the local farms in the summer. Great great veraity from all over the world. Amazing flavours and affordable
quality eating out. Organic is not gold.
Healthy lifestyle overall
Ski
Not worry about fashion
Less drinking (although a little bit more sometime could help some people here..)
People are active and celebrate nature
Summer
BBQ in the summer. Everyday..we actually vegetarians, but still..there is good fresh fish around...
Health care in the UK for me personally was far better and far more organised on the NHS. Waiting times here for certain things has been an absolute nightmare.
Wait until you are with out benefits and need drugs. They are certainly not cheap either. Prescribed medication on the NHS has a pricing cap. No such thing exists here/ My last prescription drugs were $60.
The NHS is a bit of a post code lottery but a hospital in London not very different to a hospital in Toronto at all.
If you check any international rankings system healthcare in Canada easily down the pecking order with places like Saudi Arabia above it.
http://thepatientfactor.com/canadian...ealth-systems/
I certainly wouldn't use healthcare as a criteria to remain in Canada.
Apr 14th 2014, 6:12 pm
#54
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Joined: Sep 2010
Location: Maryland (via Belfast, Manchester, Toronto and London)
Posts: 4,802
Re: Toronto or going back to London after 5 yrs, so confused!
I used to live/work in London (rented a house) but just couldn't afford to buy a house anywhere we wanted to live. Like any other city, it has its pros and cons. I agree that some of it does look like a dump but isn't that true of any major city? My brother has lived in Kingsbury (NW) for many years and he thinks it has gone steadily downhill over the years in terms of crime.
There are places in and around London that are more affordable but still allow reasonably good access to London to visit family/friends and whatever the city has to offer. My sister-in-law lives in Eastbourne with her husband and kids. They love it there and regularly travel to London for various reasons.
There are places in and around London that are more affordable but still allow reasonably good access to London to visit family/friends and whatever the city has to offer. My sister-in-law lives in Eastbourne with her husband and kids. They love it there and regularly travel to London for various reasons.
Apr 14th 2014, 7:01 pm
#55
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Joined: Sep 2003
Location: Upstate South Carolina
Posts: 30,768
Re: Toronto or going back to London after 5 yrs, so confused!
Is it not possible to fix the life work balance in order to spend more time with the kids. Ultimately it wont matter to the kids if you live in either london or toronto if you never spend much time with them.
I would go for a little less income and little more time with the children while they are young enough to appreciate it.
My view is that life work balance is ultimately in my own hands, what doesnt get done today will still be here waiting tomorrow, and if I choose to work 12 hour days and be a slave to my phone, well more fool me. My phone has an off button and I use it.
I would go for a little less income and little more time with the children while they are young enough to appreciate it.
My view is that life work balance is ultimately in my own hands, what doesnt get done today will still be here waiting tomorrow, and if I choose to work 12 hour days and be a slave to my phone, well more fool me. My phone has an off button and I use it.
Apr 14th 2014, 7:08 pm
#56
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Joined: Jan 2004
Location: Worcestershire
Posts: 4,219
Re: Toronto or going back to London after 5 yrs, so confused!
Moved back with kids 6 and 9... don't worry about that, like water off a ducks back
IMHO the education we are now getting is much better than in Canada, but you need to remember we're comparing schools not education systems specificly
Intresting although cost of housing is higher, and income taxes about on par... our UK council tax is signifcantly lower than our CAN property taxes..
Car insurnce much cheaper.. food seems cheaper.. booze is wayyyy cheaper...
let not talk to much about Cheese, bacon, shopping in Europe...
As an outdoors person I do find the climate much better.. for biking, hikeing, climbing, etc I also like the lack of mosquitoes and absence of DEET...
the extra holidays (average of 5weeks) you get in the UK are a significant bonus too
But will miss hot days swimming in the lake all day
IMHO the education we are now getting is much better than in Canada, but you need to remember we're comparing schools not education systems specificly
Intresting although cost of housing is higher, and income taxes about on par... our UK council tax is signifcantly lower than our CAN property taxes..
Car insurnce much cheaper.. food seems cheaper.. booze is wayyyy cheaper...
let not talk to much about Cheese, bacon, shopping in Europe...
As an outdoors person I do find the climate much better.. for biking, hikeing, climbing, etc I also like the lack of mosquitoes and absence of DEET...
the extra holidays (average of 5weeks) you get in the UK are a significant bonus too
But will miss hot days swimming in the lake all day
Apr 14th 2014, 7:21 pm
#57
Forum Regular
Joined: Dec 2013
Location: Regina
Posts: 278
Re: Toronto or going back to London after 5 yrs, so confused!
I'm sorry, but I can't see what the attraction is about London anymore.
With all but 6 years out of my 41 in the time I spent in London I have witnessed all the good and bad London has to offer.
If you can earn a nice few quid and I mean a nice few quid then maybe you can rise above all the negatives.
So much has changed over the years, I remember down at Upton Park market you used to get the local barrow boys selling their fruit and veg and shouting out, GET YOU GUMS ROUND ME PLUMS 2 FOR A POUND.
That's now been replaced by VERY VERY NICE 1 POUND FISH, serious check it out on you tube.
Don't get me wrong you can take a trip to Borough Market and it will be a great day out with all it has to offer , but what after that ?
Apologies for the rant, Its still one of the greatest city's in the world but be sure you know what you want.
TB is on the rise in London , happy days
With all but 6 years out of my 41 in the time I spent in London I have witnessed all the good and bad London has to offer.
If you can earn a nice few quid and I mean a nice few quid then maybe you can rise above all the negatives.
So much has changed over the years, I remember down at Upton Park market you used to get the local barrow boys selling their fruit and veg and shouting out, GET YOU GUMS ROUND ME PLUMS 2 FOR A POUND.
That's now been replaced by VERY VERY NICE 1 POUND FISH, serious check it out on you tube.
Don't get me wrong you can take a trip to Borough Market and it will be a great day out with all it has to offer , but what after that ?
Apologies for the rant, Its still one of the greatest city's in the world but be sure you know what you want.
TB is on the rise in London , happy days
Apr 14th 2014, 7:23 pm
#58
Assimilated Pauper
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Ontario
Posts: 40,018
Re: Toronto or going back to London after 5 yrs, so confused!
I'm sorry, but I can't see what the attraction is about London anymore.
With all but 6 years out of my 41 in the time I spent in London I have witnessed all the good and bad London has to offer.
If you can earn a nice few quid and I mean a nice few quid then maybe you can rise above all the negatives.
So much has changed over the years, I remember down at Upton Park market you used to get the local barrow boys selling their fruit and veg and shouting out, GET YOU GUMS ROUND ME PLUMS 2 FOR A POUND.
That's now been replaced by VERY VERY NICE 1 POUND FISH, serious check it out on you tube.
Don't get me wrong you can take a trip to Borough Market and it will be a great day out with all it has to offer , but what after that ?
Apologies for the rant, Its still one of the greatest city's in the world but be sure you know what you want.
TB is on the rise in London , happy days
With all but 6 years out of my 41 in the time I spent in London I have witnessed all the good and bad London has to offer.
If you can earn a nice few quid and I mean a nice few quid then maybe you can rise above all the negatives.
So much has changed over the years, I remember down at Upton Park market you used to get the local barrow boys selling their fruit and veg and shouting out, GET YOU GUMS ROUND ME PLUMS 2 FOR A POUND.
That's now been replaced by VERY VERY NICE 1 POUND FISH, serious check it out on you tube.
Don't get me wrong you can take a trip to Borough Market and it will be a great day out with all it has to offer , but what after that ?
Apologies for the rant, Its still one of the greatest city's in the world but be sure you know what you want.
TB is on the rise in London , happy days
Apr 14th 2014, 7:47 pm
#59
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Sep 2013
Location: SW Ontario, Canada
Posts: 6,960
Re: Toronto or going back to London after 5 yrs, so confused!
No schools in the UK don't have to sing the national anthem. That would be too offensive to the minority cultures/nationalities. It is controversial enough to fly an English flag during sporting events!
LOL
Good though. It saves time for education rather than standing around singing a song that doesn't mean anything to the kids.... (sorry to be harsh, but its true)
I think that Canada has a good balance between the UK who seem scared to promote the UK within Britain, and the States who go way too far with their patriotism.
I would agree mostly with that statement
Surely you would need to be a resident in order to use the public health service there no? In which case you would be paying for it via taxes anyways. It's like British people who say the NHS is free.. it's not.
Nope, not in Malta. Once I get my citizenship and apply for my passport, on my next trip over I take my citizenship certificate and passport into the police station and apply for an Identity Card and an EHIC, which entitles me to all the privileges of being "resident" ... Even emailed the tax dept and they said this was fully possible. Of course I have to have an address over there, which I do, I'll use my grandparents place. Which they [tax dept] also said was perfectly fine, as long as I have a "residence" whilst there. Unless I am there for more than 183 days in a year it will not make me subject to Maltese taxes so i'm golden
I also don't recall the Brits being known for their dentistry..
LOL me neither
LOL
Good though. It saves time for education rather than standing around singing a song that doesn't mean anything to the kids.... (sorry to be harsh, but its true)I think that Canada has a good balance between the UK who seem scared to promote the UK within Britain, and the States who go way too far with their patriotism.
I would agree mostly with that statement
Surely you would need to be a resident in order to use the public health service there no? In which case you would be paying for it via taxes anyways. It's like British people who say the NHS is free.. it's not.
Nope, not in Malta. Once I get my citizenship and apply for my passport, on my next trip over I take my citizenship certificate and passport into the police station and apply for an Identity Card and an EHIC, which entitles me to all the privileges of being "resident" ... Even emailed the tax dept and they said this was fully possible. Of course I have to have an address over there, which I do, I'll use my grandparents place. Which they [tax dept] also said was perfectly fine, as long as I have a "residence" whilst there. Unless I am there for more than 183 days in a year it will not make me subject to Maltese taxes so i'm golden
I also don't recall the Brits being known for their dentistry..
LOL me neither
Apr 14th 2014, 8:01 pm
#60
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Joined: Sep 2003
Location: Upstate South Carolina
Posts: 30,768
Re: Toronto or going back to London after 5 yrs, so confused!
On the subject of standing around singing a song that doesn't mean anything to the kids, Do schools in the UK Still do hymns at assembly?...
I seem to recall we used to do at least 3 every day. Not that is did me any harm in the long term.
Does anyone really think there is a "night and day" difference between raising kids as a relatively well off parent in Canada, vs the UK? I dont see it.
I seem to recall we used to do at least 3 every day. Not that is did me any harm in the long term.
Does anyone really think there is a "night and day" difference between raising kids as a relatively well off parent in Canada, vs the UK? I dont see it.
Last edited by iaink; Apr 14th 2014 at 8:04 pm.