Land of opportunity...
#181
Homebody
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Joined: Jan 2005
Location: HOME
Posts: 23,174
Re: Land of opportunity...
To be fair I also was wondering the same thing. Given the very low amount of posts that you have and the strong penchant for posting sites and articles to back up your arguments, I had to wonder about your background. I think without knowing that you are a Prof. at Florida I'd probably think you were someone who had a strange hobby of collecting economic statistics. It makes sense now.
The link he quoted is not to an economics text book, but to a right-wing think tank:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...olicy_Analysis
"The National Center for Policy Analysis (NCPA) is a nonprofit, nonpartisan public policy research organization, established in 1983. The NCPA's goal is to develop and promote private alternatives to government regulation and control, solving problems by relying on the strength of the competitive, entrepreneurial private sector."
#183
Re: Land of opportunity...
Does it make sense?
The link he quoted is not to an economics text book, but to a right-wing think tank:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...olicy_Analysis
"The National Center for Policy Analysis (NCPA) is a nonprofit, nonpartisan public policy research organization, established in 1983. The NCPA's goal is to develop and promote private alternatives to government regulation and control, solving problems by relying on the strength of the competitive, entrepreneurial private sector."
The link he quoted is not to an economics text book, but to a right-wing think tank:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...olicy_Analysis
"The National Center for Policy Analysis (NCPA) is a nonprofit, nonpartisan public policy research organization, established in 1983. The NCPA's goal is to develop and promote private alternatives to government regulation and control, solving problems by relying on the strength of the competitive, entrepreneurial private sector."
#184
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Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2005
Location: HOME
Posts: 23,174
Re: Land of opportunity...
The charts used to strengthen the argument were from the Organization of Economic Co-Operation which is not a think tank. The inferences from those charts might be shady but the charts themselves are from this organization. Seems like they have an international membership. It makes it seem fair to me in that regard.
GDP is one thing, but what is done with it is another matter. The US spends about 2x as much, percentage-wise on healthcare than most European countries, and yet healthcare is not better, and in fact worse for many US residents.
So our GDP is lower - but we still manage to have decent vacation time, maternity leave/pay, universal healthcare etc.
Last edited by Elvira; Jul 20th 2008 at 4:07 pm.
#185
Re: Land of opportunity...
Data can be bent this way and that, but you could argue that an unemployed person in most EU countries will have a better quality of life than many employed people in the US (the people who work 2 jobs but still don't have health insurance, for instance).
So our GDP is lower - but we still manage to have decent vacation time, maternity leave/pay, free healthcare etc.
GDP is one thing, but what is done with it is another matter. The US spends about 2x as much, percentage-wise on healthcare than most European countries, and yet healthcare is not better, and in fact worse for many US residents.
So our GDP is lower - but we still manage to have decent vacation time, maternity leave/pay, universal healthcare etc.
So our GDP is lower - but we still manage to have decent vacation time, maternity leave/pay, free healthcare etc.
GDP is one thing, but what is done with it is another matter. The US spends about 2x as much, percentage-wise on healthcare than most European countries, and yet healthcare is not better, and in fact worse for many US residents.
So our GDP is lower - but we still manage to have decent vacation time, maternity leave/pay, universal healthcare etc.
#186
Bloody Yank
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: USA! USA!
Posts: 4,186
Re: Land of opportunity...
However, if you are an economics professor, then you should understand the following points:
-Comparing unemployment data on an international basis can be deceptive, because there is no single universal definition of what constitutes "unemployment." Governments often play with the definitions, in order to make their rates look lower than they may actually be.
In the US, the commonly cited "unemployment" figure is what the BLS refers to as the U-3 rate, which is based upon benefits eligibility. It does not include "discouraged workers" who don't have jobs but who are believed to have given up because their joblessness exceeded the benefits period.
If you measure US unemployment by the U-6 rate, which includes the "discouraged workers" and the underemployed, the US unemployment rate is currently close to 10%. The U-6 rate is often 3-4% above the more commonly quoted U-3 rate. Obviously, the government would not be thrilled to see U-6 become the new standard for reporting, even though they have been collecting it for years. http://www.bls.gov/opub/ils/pdf/opbils67.pdf
-The US is able to achieve high GDP on a PPP basis because it uses its enormous trade deficit and low-wage immigrant labor (often in the form of Latin American illegals) to effectively export inflation.
While this has been an effective tool for propping up the US economy for the last couple of decades, this management model is unsustainable over the long run, and will cease to function properly if and when the US dollar loses reserve status. The US is uniquely able to support such a massive trade deficit because the dollar's reserve status provides us with lower interest rates than we could otherwise support. When countries such as Argentina attempted to play the US' game, they saw their currency crash and their banking system teeter on the brink of collapse.
The US pursuit of constant growth at the expense of its export base is a long-term path to disaster. This is the macroeconomic equivalent of living on a credit card from monthly payment to monthly payment, praying that the bank continually raises your credit limit.
That sort of game ceases working when the bank decides to stop playing. It hasn't stopped already only because the US economy is enormous, not because of brilliant management or some miraculous spiritually enlightened invisible hand.
#187
Forum Regular
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 90
Re: Land of opportunity...
The poorest state is Mississippi is for 2007:
GDP: $90 billion
Population: 2,912,000
Per capita GDP: $ 30,900
http://www.bea.gov/regional/gsp/
http://www.census.gov/popest/states/...EST2006-01.xls
As of 2007, Italy was at $30,400
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...PP)_per_capita
Of course, I'd rather go to Italy anyway
GDP: $90 billion
Population: 2,912,000
Per capita GDP: $ 30,900
http://www.bea.gov/regional/gsp/
http://www.census.gov/popest/states/...EST2006-01.xls
As of 2007, Italy was at $30,400
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...PP)_per_capita
Of course, I'd rather go to Italy anyway
#188
Re: Land of opportunity...
That's totally incorrect. Look here lady:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...PP)_per_capita
And yes, that puts the UK below Alabama for the year 2007 ($35k vs $36k). The state figures come from the BLS website:
http://www.bea.gov/regional/gsp/
You were probably looking at GDP per capita at exchage rates. This is the incorrect way of calculating it, since it doesn't take into account the real exchange rate and cost of living. GDP per capita (ppp) is the correct way of measuring it.
The figures which you've seen probably use the market exchange rate to calculate GDP, but of course the correct way to calculate this is using PPP.
For more reading:
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/59/53/37984314.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...PP)_per_capita
And yes, that puts the UK below Alabama for the year 2007 ($35k vs $36k). The state figures come from the BLS website:
http://www.bea.gov/regional/gsp/
You were probably looking at GDP per capita at exchage rates. This is the incorrect way of calculating it, since it doesn't take into account the real exchange rate and cost of living. GDP per capita (ppp) is the correct way of measuring it.
The figures which you've seen probably use the market exchange rate to calculate GDP, but of course the correct way to calculate this is using PPP.
For more reading:
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/59/53/37984314.pdf
#189
Re: Land of opportunity...
Data can be bent this way and that, but you could argue that an unemployed person in most EU countries will have a better quality of life than many employed people in the US (the people who work 2 jobs but still don't have health insurance, for instance).
GDP is one thing, but what is done with it is another matter. The US spends about 2x as much, percentage-wise on healthcare than most European countries, and yet healthcare is not better, and in fact worse for many US residents.
So our GDP is lower - but we still manage to have decent vacation time, maternity leave/pay, universal healthcare etc.
GDP is one thing, but what is done with it is another matter. The US spends about 2x as much, percentage-wise on healthcare than most European countries, and yet healthcare is not better, and in fact worse for many US residents.
So our GDP is lower - but we still manage to have decent vacation time, maternity leave/pay, universal healthcare etc.
#191
Forum Regular
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 90
Re: Land of opportunity...
I have little doubt that the US has lower structural rates of unemployment than most countries in western Europe, most of the time. This chart provides an example: ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.reques...bor/flsjec.txt
-The US is able to achieve high GDP on a PPP basis because it uses its enormous trade deficit and low-wage immigrant labor (often in the form of Latin American illegals) to effectively export inflation.
While this has been an effective tool for propping up the US economy for the last couple of decades, this management model is unsustainable over the long run, and will cease to function properly if and when the US dollar loses reserve status. The US is uniquely able to support such a massive trade deficit because the dollar's reserve status provides us with lower interest rates than we could otherwise support. When countries such as Argentina attempted to play the US' game, they saw their currency crash and their banking system teeter on the brink of collapse.
The US pursuit of constant growth at the expense of its export base is a long-term path to disaster. This is the macroeconomic equivalent of living on a credit card from monthly payment to monthly payment, praying that the bank continually raises your credit limit.
That sort of game ceases working when the bank decides to stop playing. It hasn't stopped already only because the US economy is enormous, not because of brilliant management or some miraculous spiritually enlightened invisible hand.
-The US is able to achieve high GDP on a PPP basis because it uses its enormous trade deficit and low-wage immigrant labor (often in the form of Latin American illegals) to effectively export inflation.
While this has been an effective tool for propping up the US economy for the last couple of decades, this management model is unsustainable over the long run, and will cease to function properly if and when the US dollar loses reserve status. The US is uniquely able to support such a massive trade deficit because the dollar's reserve status provides us with lower interest rates than we could otherwise support. When countries such as Argentina attempted to play the US' game, they saw their currency crash and their banking system teeter on the brink of collapse.
The US pursuit of constant growth at the expense of its export base is a long-term path to disaster. This is the macroeconomic equivalent of living on a credit card from monthly payment to monthly payment, praying that the bank continually raises your credit limit.
That sort of game ceases working when the bank decides to stop playing. It hasn't stopped already only because the US economy is enormous, not because of brilliant management or some miraculous spiritually enlightened invisible hand.
Bushs government wont to stimulate economic that mean that dollar collaps would eat poorest countries.
Last edited by Vladimir; Jul 20th 2008 at 4:26 pm. Reason: grammar
#193
Re: Land of opportunity...
I'm Economics Professor at UF, and I think I know (after years, and after hundreds of publications) what I am talking about. What I said is also common knowledge, so I am surprised somebody doubted it.
Here is a direct link:
http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba/ba475/
Here is a direct link:
http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba/ba475/
#195
Forum Regular
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 53
Re: Land of opportunity...
Data can be bent this way and that, but you could argue that an unemployed person in most EU countries will have a better quality of life than many employed people in the US (the people who work 2 jobs but still don't have health insurance, for instance).
GDP is one thing, but what is done with it is another matter. The US spends about 2x as much, percentage-wise on healthcare than most European countries, and yet healthcare is not better, and in fact worse for many US residents.
So our GDP is lower - but we still manage to have decent vacation time, maternity leave/pay, universal healthcare etc.
GDP is one thing, but what is done with it is another matter. The US spends about 2x as much, percentage-wise on healthcare than most European countries, and yet healthcare is not better, and in fact worse for many US residents.
So our GDP is lower - but we still manage to have decent vacation time, maternity leave/pay, universal healthcare etc.