Go Back  British Expats > Living & Moving Abroad > USA
Reload this Page >

Land of opportunity...

Land of opportunity...

Old Jul 20th 2008, 3:16 pm
  #181  
Homebody
Thread Starter
 
Joined: Jan 2005
Location: HOME
Posts: 23,174
Elvira has a reputation beyond reputeElvira has a reputation beyond reputeElvira has a reputation beyond reputeElvira has a reputation beyond reputeElvira has a reputation beyond reputeElvira has a reputation beyond reputeElvira has a reputation beyond reputeElvira has a reputation beyond reputeElvira has a reputation beyond reputeElvira has a reputation beyond reputeElvira has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Land of opportunity...

Originally Posted by ugacrew
To be fair I also was wondering the same thing. Given the very low amount of posts that you have and the strong penchant for posting sites and articles to back up your arguments, I had to wonder about your background. I think without knowing that you are a Prof. at Florida I'd probably think you were someone who had a strange hobby of collecting economic statistics. It makes sense now.
Does it make sense?

The link he quoted is not to an economics text book, but to a right-wing think tank:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...olicy_Analysis

"The National Center for Policy Analysis (NCPA) is a nonprofit, nonpartisan public policy research organization, established in 1983. The NCPA's goal is to develop and promote private alternatives to government regulation and control, solving problems by relying on the strength of the competitive, entrepreneurial private sector."
Elvira is offline  
Old Jul 20th 2008, 3:24 pm
  #182  
A lion in your lap
 
elfman's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2003
Location: Sparta NJ
Posts: 7,605
elfman has a reputation beyond reputeelfman has a reputation beyond reputeelfman has a reputation beyond reputeelfman has a reputation beyond reputeelfman has a reputation beyond reputeelfman has a reputation beyond reputeelfman has a reputation beyond reputeelfman has a reputation beyond reputeelfman has a reputation beyond reputeelfman has a reputation beyond reputeelfman has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Land of opportunity...

Originally Posted by Fonseca33
that puts the UK below Alabama for the year 2007
given the choice between Alabama and the UK, I know where I'd rather live
elfman is offline  
Old Jul 20th 2008, 3:25 pm
  #183  
Riding on silver wings
 
ugacrew's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 10,543
ugacrew has a reputation beyond reputeugacrew has a reputation beyond reputeugacrew has a reputation beyond reputeugacrew has a reputation beyond reputeugacrew has a reputation beyond reputeugacrew has a reputation beyond reputeugacrew has a reputation beyond reputeugacrew has a reputation beyond reputeugacrew has a reputation beyond reputeugacrew has a reputation beyond reputeugacrew has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Land of opportunity...

Originally Posted by Elvira
Does it make sense?

The link he quoted is not to an economics text book, but to a right-wing think tank:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...olicy_Analysis

"The National Center for Policy Analysis (NCPA) is a nonprofit, nonpartisan public policy research organization, established in 1983. The NCPA's goal is to develop and promote private alternatives to government regulation and control, solving problems by relying on the strength of the competitive, entrepreneurial private sector."
The charts used to strengthen the argument were from the Organization of Economic Co-Operation which is not a think tank. The inferences from those charts might be shady but the charts themselves are from this organization. Seems like they have an international membership. It makes it seem fair to me in that regard.
ugacrew is offline  
Old Jul 20th 2008, 3:32 pm
  #184  
Homebody
Thread Starter
 
Joined: Jan 2005
Location: HOME
Posts: 23,174
Elvira has a reputation beyond reputeElvira has a reputation beyond reputeElvira has a reputation beyond reputeElvira has a reputation beyond reputeElvira has a reputation beyond reputeElvira has a reputation beyond reputeElvira has a reputation beyond reputeElvira has a reputation beyond reputeElvira has a reputation beyond reputeElvira has a reputation beyond reputeElvira has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Land of opportunity...

Originally Posted by ugacrew
The charts used to strengthen the argument were from the Organization of Economic Co-Operation which is not a think tank. The inferences from those charts might be shady but the charts themselves are from this organization. Seems like they have an international membership. It makes it seem fair to me in that regard.
Data can be bent this way and that, but you could argue that an unemployed person in most EU countries will have a better quality of life than many employed people in the US (the people who work 2 jobs but still don't have health insurance, for instance).

GDP is one thing, but what is done with it is another matter. The US spends about 2x as much, percentage-wise on healthcare than most European countries, and yet healthcare is not better, and in fact worse for many US residents.

So our GDP is lower - but we still manage to have decent vacation time, maternity leave/pay, universal healthcare etc.

Last edited by Elvira; Jul 20th 2008 at 4:07 pm.
Elvira is offline  
Old Jul 20th 2008, 3:46 pm
  #185  
Riding on silver wings
 
ugacrew's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 10,543
ugacrew has a reputation beyond reputeugacrew has a reputation beyond reputeugacrew has a reputation beyond reputeugacrew has a reputation beyond reputeugacrew has a reputation beyond reputeugacrew has a reputation beyond reputeugacrew has a reputation beyond reputeugacrew has a reputation beyond reputeugacrew has a reputation beyond reputeugacrew has a reputation beyond reputeugacrew has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Land of opportunity...

Originally Posted by Elvira
Data can be bent this way and that, but you could argue that an unemployed person in most EU countries will have a better quality of life than many employed people in the US (the people who work 2 jobs but still don't have health insurance, for instance).

So our GDP is lower - but we still manage to have decent vacation time, maternity leave/pay, free healthcare etc.

GDP is one thing, but what is done with it is another matter. The US spends about 2x as much, percentage-wise on healthcare than most European countries, and yet healthcare is not better, and in fact worse for many US residents.

So our GDP is lower - but we still manage to have decent vacation time, maternity leave/pay, universal healthcare etc.
I definitely can't argue against the fact that the healthcare here sucks. Meaning the availability, costs, and disparity of the system. As I said in my earlier posts, I can't afford to be healthy nor can I afford to be sick. It's a no win situation especially when I've been out of a job and forced to pay COBRA because of the silly nonsense regarding pre-existing conditions being a method insurance companies use to deny coverage. So what used to be a $45 premium per check becomes a $240 premium per month. This while being unemployed and NOT earning the money to cover it. However I have to so that my medications are still affordable and if I ever get into an accident or sick and needing medical attention. It's the thing I fear the most when it comes to being sacked. That and having to pay a mortgage.
ugacrew is offline  
Old Jul 20th 2008, 3:55 pm
  #186  
Bloody Yank
 
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: USA! USA!
Posts: 4,186
RoadWarriorFromLP has a reputation beyond reputeRoadWarriorFromLP has a reputation beyond reputeRoadWarriorFromLP has a reputation beyond reputeRoadWarriorFromLP has a reputation beyond reputeRoadWarriorFromLP has a reputation beyond reputeRoadWarriorFromLP has a reputation beyond reputeRoadWarriorFromLP has a reputation beyond reputeRoadWarriorFromLP has a reputation beyond reputeRoadWarriorFromLP has a reputation beyond reputeRoadWarriorFromLP has a reputation beyond reputeRoadWarriorFromLP has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Land of opportunity...

Originally Posted by Fonseca33
I'm Economics Professor at UF, and I think I know (after years, and after hundreds of publications) what I am talking about. What I said is also common knowledge, so I am surprised somebody doubted it.
I have little doubt that the US has lower structural rates of unemployment than most countries in western Europe, most of the time. This chart provides an example: ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.reques...bor/flsjec.txt

However, if you are an economics professor, then you should understand the following points:

-Comparing unemployment data on an international basis can be deceptive, because there is no single universal definition of what constitutes "unemployment." Governments often play with the definitions, in order to make their rates look lower than they may actually be.

In the US, the commonly cited "unemployment" figure is what the BLS refers to as the U-3 rate, which is based upon benefits eligibility. It does not include "discouraged workers" who don't have jobs but who are believed to have given up because their joblessness exceeded the benefits period.

If you measure US unemployment by the U-6 rate, which includes the "discouraged workers" and the underemployed, the US unemployment rate is currently close to 10%. The U-6 rate is often 3-4% above the more commonly quoted U-3 rate. Obviously, the government would not be thrilled to see U-6 become the new standard for reporting, even though they have been collecting it for years. http://www.bls.gov/opub/ils/pdf/opbils67.pdf

-The US is able to achieve high GDP on a PPP basis because it uses its enormous trade deficit and low-wage immigrant labor (often in the form of Latin American illegals) to effectively export inflation.

While this has been an effective tool for propping up the US economy for the last couple of decades, this management model is unsustainable over the long run, and will cease to function properly if and when the US dollar loses reserve status. The US is uniquely able to support such a massive trade deficit because the dollar's reserve status provides us with lower interest rates than we could otherwise support. When countries such as Argentina attempted to play the US' game, they saw their currency crash and their banking system teeter on the brink of collapse.

The US pursuit of constant growth at the expense of its export base is a long-term path to disaster. This is the macroeconomic equivalent of living on a credit card from monthly payment to monthly payment, praying that the bank continually raises your credit limit.

That sort of game ceases working when the bank decides to stop playing. It hasn't stopped already only because the US economy is enormous, not because of brilliant management or some miraculous spiritually enlightened invisible hand.
RoadWarriorFromLP is offline  
Old Jul 20th 2008, 4:05 pm
  #187  
Forum Regular
 
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 90
Vladimir is a name known to allVladimir is a name known to allVladimir is a name known to allVladimir is a name known to allVladimir is a name known to allVladimir is a name known to allVladimir is a name known to allVladimir is a name known to allVladimir is a name known to allVladimir is a name known to allVladimir is a name known to all
Default Re: Land of opportunity...

Originally Posted by Fonseca33
The poorest state is Mississippi is for 2007:

GDP: $90 billion
Population: 2,912,000

Per capita GDP: $ 30,900

http://www.bea.gov/regional/gsp/

http://www.census.gov/popest/states/...EST2006-01.xls

As of 2007, Italy was at $30,400

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...PP)_per_capita

Of course, I'd rather go to Italy anyway
Yeah i read old statistic. Something like 2001 or 2003 but i still can`t realized GDP could growth so much rapidly. Numbers like 27 or 28 i think closer to reality.
Vladimir is offline  
Old Jul 20th 2008, 4:18 pm
  #188  
BE Forum Addict
 
Tootsie Frickensprinkles's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,397
Tootsie Frickensprinkles has a reputation beyond reputeTootsie Frickensprinkles has a reputation beyond reputeTootsie Frickensprinkles has a reputation beyond reputeTootsie Frickensprinkles has a reputation beyond reputeTootsie Frickensprinkles has a reputation beyond reputeTootsie Frickensprinkles has a reputation beyond reputeTootsie Frickensprinkles has a reputation beyond reputeTootsie Frickensprinkles has a reputation beyond reputeTootsie Frickensprinkles has a reputation beyond reputeTootsie Frickensprinkles has a reputation beyond reputeTootsie Frickensprinkles has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Land of opportunity...

Originally Posted by Fonseca33
That's totally incorrect. Look here lady:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...PP)_per_capita

And yes, that puts the UK below Alabama for the year 2007 ($35k vs $36k). The state figures come from the BLS website:

http://www.bea.gov/regional/gsp/

You were probably looking at GDP per capita at exchage rates. This is the incorrect way of calculating it, since it doesn't take into account the real exchange rate and cost of living. GDP per capita (ppp) is the correct way of measuring it.

The figures which you've seen probably use the market exchange rate to calculate GDP, but of course the correct way to calculate this is using PPP.

For more reading:

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/59/53/37984314.pdf
I never said it was, I said nothing about PPP. I was using the example of the claim to illustrate how blindingly stupid and irrelevant these figures can be.
Tootsie Frickensprinkles is offline  
Old Jul 20th 2008, 4:19 pm
  #189  
Septicity
 
fatbrit's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 23,762
fatbrit has a reputation beyond reputefatbrit has a reputation beyond reputefatbrit has a reputation beyond reputefatbrit has a reputation beyond reputefatbrit has a reputation beyond reputefatbrit has a reputation beyond reputefatbrit has a reputation beyond reputefatbrit has a reputation beyond reputefatbrit has a reputation beyond reputefatbrit has a reputation beyond reputefatbrit has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Land of opportunity...

Originally Posted by Elvira
Data can be bent this way and that, but you could argue that an unemployed person in most EU countries will have a better quality of life than many employed people in the US (the people who work 2 jobs but still don't have health insurance, for instance).

GDP is one thing, but what is done with it is another matter. The US spends about 2x as much, percentage-wise on healthcare than most European countries, and yet healthcare is not better, and in fact worse for many US residents.

So our GDP is lower - but we still manage to have decent vacation time, maternity leave/pay, universal healthcare etc.
GDP is per capita. Europe shares it out more evenly. The US is approaching an oligarchy in this respect.
fatbrit is offline  
Old Jul 20th 2008, 4:25 pm
  #190  
BE Forum Addict
 
Tootsie Frickensprinkles's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,397
Tootsie Frickensprinkles has a reputation beyond reputeTootsie Frickensprinkles has a reputation beyond reputeTootsie Frickensprinkles has a reputation beyond reputeTootsie Frickensprinkles has a reputation beyond reputeTootsie Frickensprinkles has a reputation beyond reputeTootsie Frickensprinkles has a reputation beyond reputeTootsie Frickensprinkles has a reputation beyond reputeTootsie Frickensprinkles has a reputation beyond reputeTootsie Frickensprinkles has a reputation beyond reputeTootsie Frickensprinkles has a reputation beyond reputeTootsie Frickensprinkles has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Land of opportunity...

Originally Posted by elfman
given the choice between Alabama and the UK, I know where I'd rather live
Oh but we all know what a powerhouse of economics, culture, education and opportunity Alamaba is ... why on earth not?

Or perhaps the statistics are blindingly stupid and irrelavent ...
Tootsie Frickensprinkles is offline  
Old Jul 20th 2008, 4:25 pm
  #191  
Forum Regular
 
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 90
Vladimir is a name known to allVladimir is a name known to allVladimir is a name known to allVladimir is a name known to allVladimir is a name known to allVladimir is a name known to allVladimir is a name known to allVladimir is a name known to allVladimir is a name known to allVladimir is a name known to allVladimir is a name known to all
Default Re: Land of opportunity...

Originally Posted by RoadWarriorFromLP
I have little doubt that the US has lower structural rates of unemployment than most countries in western Europe, most of the time. This chart provides an example: ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.reques...bor/flsjec.txt


-The US is able to achieve high GDP on a PPP basis because it uses its enormous trade deficit and low-wage immigrant labor (often in the form of Latin American illegals) to effectively export inflation.

While this has been an effective tool for propping up the US economy for the last couple of decades, this management model is unsustainable over the long run, and will cease to function properly if and when the US dollar loses reserve status. The US is uniquely able to support such a massive trade deficit because the dollar's reserve status provides us with lower interest rates than we could otherwise support. When countries such as Argentina attempted to play the US' game, they saw their currency crash and their banking system teeter on the brink of collapse.

The US pursuit of constant growth at the expense of its export base is a long-term path to disaster. This is the macroeconomic equivalent of living on a credit card from monthly payment to monthly payment, praying that the bank continually raises your credit limit.

That sort of game ceases working when the bank decides to stop playing. It hasn't stopped already only because the US economy is enormous, not because of brilliant management or some miraculous spiritually enlightened invisible hand.
I think that USA economic on its way of collaps. Already 2-3 % of GDP already approved to be fake. But GDP is and money like paper go to third countries.
Bushs government wont to stimulate economic that mean that dollar collaps would eat poorest countries.

Last edited by Vladimir; Jul 20th 2008 at 4:26 pm. Reason: grammar
Vladimir is offline  
Old Jul 20th 2008, 4:31 pm
  #192  
Homebody
Thread Starter
 
Joined: Jan 2005
Location: HOME
Posts: 23,174
Elvira has a reputation beyond reputeElvira has a reputation beyond reputeElvira has a reputation beyond reputeElvira has a reputation beyond reputeElvira has a reputation beyond reputeElvira has a reputation beyond reputeElvira has a reputation beyond reputeElvira has a reputation beyond reputeElvira has a reputation beyond reputeElvira has a reputation beyond reputeElvira has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Land of opportunity...

Originally Posted by Tootsie Frickensprinkles
Oh but we all know what a powerhouse of economics, culture, education and opportunity Alamaba is ... why on earth not?

Or perhaps the statistics are blindingly stupid and irrelavent ...
Alabama vs UK - tough decision innit...

Elvira is offline  
Old Jul 20th 2008, 4:33 pm
  #193  
BE Forum Addict
 
Tootsie Frickensprinkles's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,397
Tootsie Frickensprinkles has a reputation beyond reputeTootsie Frickensprinkles has a reputation beyond reputeTootsie Frickensprinkles has a reputation beyond reputeTootsie Frickensprinkles has a reputation beyond reputeTootsie Frickensprinkles has a reputation beyond reputeTootsie Frickensprinkles has a reputation beyond reputeTootsie Frickensprinkles has a reputation beyond reputeTootsie Frickensprinkles has a reputation beyond reputeTootsie Frickensprinkles has a reputation beyond reputeTootsie Frickensprinkles has a reputation beyond reputeTootsie Frickensprinkles has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Land of opportunity...

Originally Posted by Fonseca33
I'm Economics Professor at UF, and I think I know (after years, and after hundreds of publications) what I am talking about. What I said is also common knowledge, so I am surprised somebody doubted it.

Here is a direct link:

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba/ba475/
So you've never actually worked, in business, and more specifically in Human Resource management in Europe then?
Tootsie Frickensprinkles is offline  
Old Jul 20th 2008, 4:50 pm
  #194  
Forum Regular
 
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 90
Vladimir is a name known to allVladimir is a name known to allVladimir is a name known to allVladimir is a name known to allVladimir is a name known to allVladimir is a name known to allVladimir is a name known to allVladimir is a name known to allVladimir is a name known to allVladimir is a name known to allVladimir is a name known to all
Default Re: Land of opportunity...

Originally Posted by Elvira
Alabama vs UK - tough decision innit...
Birmingham is right choice
Vladimir is offline  
Old Jul 20th 2008, 4:51 pm
  #195  
Forum Regular
 
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 53
Fonseca33 has much to be proud ofFonseca33 has much to be proud ofFonseca33 has much to be proud ofFonseca33 has much to be proud ofFonseca33 has much to be proud ofFonseca33 has much to be proud ofFonseca33 has much to be proud ofFonseca33 has much to be proud ofFonseca33 has much to be proud ofFonseca33 has much to be proud ofFonseca33 has much to be proud of
Default Re: Land of opportunity...

Originally Posted by Elvira
Data can be bent this way and that, but you could argue that an unemployed person in most EU countries will have a better quality of life than many employed people in the US (the people who work 2 jobs but still don't have health insurance, for instance).

GDP is one thing, but what is done with it is another matter. The US spends about 2x as much, percentage-wise on healthcare than most European countries, and yet healthcare is not better, and in fact worse for many US residents.

So our GDP is lower - but we still manage to have decent vacation time, maternity leave/pay, universal healthcare etc.
Please tell me what you are arguing about. What did I specifically say that was incorrect? Everything I have said about duration of unemployment and GDP/capita is factually true. We are not talking about healthcare.
Fonseca33 is offline  

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.