[Stevenn]

The following may sound all too naive. It should do, in so many ways, take it as “the idealised case”, first approximations, or whatever, i.e. to be ground down into something far more practical.

Why Germany:
1.To learn German as a research language
2. To go to Freiburg (or possibly Heidelberg) to take part in the intellectual life at the Philosophy faculty of the university, in some non-affiliated/informal way (i.e. E Husserl and M Heidegger held professorships there, and phenomenology is my area of interest)
3. Cultural life (German-language), from Kant to Holderlin, Schubert (lieder) to Rilke, Schlusnus to Wagner ... I can go on.

The plan:
Go to the South-West, look for mundane employment that perhaps the locals aren’t willing to do (as happens so often here in the UK - you know, the anything-above-a-sewer move), during which time I’ll be making preparations, suitable contacts, etc. on the way to becoming a private TEFL teacher. I’m CELTA certified, and have the relevant experience, albeit a long time ago. (I don’t want to work in a lang. school. I hate working in lang. schools )

Some specific questions:
Are there more casual i.e. crap jobs in these student areas?

Will my basic conversational German we an impediment to any menial employment whatever?

Is this plan, or parts thereof, at all doable i.e. with the appropriate planning, enterprise and persistence?

Cheers, all responses welcomed.

[Assanah]

Hi Steve

I am not sure if German is an important research language anymore. But I know an American whose area of interest is German history. And he is in Berlin atm and absolutely loves Berlin. Even New York City cannot compete with Berlin in his view. I personally am not a big fan of Berlin. So I guess it is really a matter of personal preference if you will like it and profit from a move to Germany. That said, I am not sure if Freiburg is the place to be for intellectual life ;-) .

In Berlin I never had a problem finding part-time jobs. Most of them required good German language skills though. If you don't speak German well you will have some problems. But as a said in the other thread there are some possibilities and if you make contact with the English speaking community in Freiburg they might be able to help you in the beginning. Also, you might want to contact the British Council or other organisation that test - not teach - people's English (Toefl, IELTS). They need native speakers and don't necessarily require you to know any German. I said for the IELTS and was interviewed by a British guy - no German spoken at all.

[Stevenn]

Originally Posted by Assanah Hi Steve I am not sure if German is an important research language anymore. But I know an American whose area of interest is German history. And he is in Berlin atm and absolutely loves Berlin. Even New York City cannot compete with Berlin in his view. I personally am not a big fan of Berlin. So I guess it is really a matter of personal preference if you will like it and profit from a move to Germany. That said, I am not sure if Freiburg is the place to be for intellectual life ;-) . In Berlin I never had a problem finding part-time jobs. Most of them required good German language skills though. If you don't speak German well you will have some problems. But as a said in the other thread there are some possibilities and if you make contact with the English speaking community in Freiburg they might be able to help you in the beginning. Also, you might want to contact the British Council or other organisation that test - not teach - people's English (Toefl, IELTS). They need native speakers and don't necessarily require you to know any German. I said for the IELTS and was interviewed by a British guy - no German spoken at all.

Hi,

Sure, in philosophy German will always be one of the more important research languages. Think: Kant, Hegel, Wittgenstein, Nietszche to name but a few. You may be right about Frieburg; it was once at the very heart of European philosophy, but that was some time ago, and whose to say that it is still at the cutting edge of things - more research need there.

But, with respect to Freiburg the place, it also has the Black forest, mild winters, is beautiful, and that's notwithstanding the fact that its near France and Switzerland.

On another note, your idea about teaching is the best one I've been given. I've done that sort of thing before in Thailand - rarely, because the standard of English there is quite impoverished. To do that as a regular thing would be a real coup. Thanks for your help.

[Novocastrian]

Originally Posted by Stevenn Hi, Sure, in philosophy German will always be one of the more important research languages. Think: Kant, Hegel, Wittgenstein, Nietszche to name but a few. You may be right about Frieburg; it was once at the very heart of European philosophy, but that was some time ago, and whose to say that it is still at the cutting edge of things - more research need there. But, with respect to Freiburg the place, it also has the Black forest, mild winters, is beautiful, and that's notwithstanding the fact that its near France and Switzerland. On another note, your idea about teaching is the best one I've been given. I've done that sort of thing before in Thailand - rarely, because the standard of English there is quite impoverished. To do that as a regular thing would be a real coup. Thanks for your help.

I have a lovely coffee mug which has a map of the world on the outside rendered in a pigment which gradually goes transparent when heated.

Thus, when you fill it with hot coffee, you can watch the effects of future sea level rises occasioned by greenhouse warming.

The mug is manufactured and marketed by a company in Heidelburg called "The Unemployed Philosopher's Guild".

Make of that what you will.

[Sally Redux]

The problem I see is getting conversational German up to the level necessary to deal with reading philosophers/literature.

Also sprach Zarathustra

[CountryBumpkin.]

Well if you are not expecting miracles, and have a reasonable amount of patience, you should do fine!

Don´t know what some have against Freiburg, I find that a wonderful town. Is of course not compareable to Berlin, but it is a very typical university town here in Germany. Lots of students from all over, many social activities, one of the mildest regions in all of Germany. Berlin in comparison would be like Siberia. Also you are in a border region, very close to Switzerland and France, also Austria is not that far away. Just up the hills and you are in the Blackforest region where there are plenty of opportunities for winter sport.

Being a university town people are usually rather helpful, when they notice someone is not so firm in German. Also the fear of missing out when your German is not perfect, I can not agree on that.

When I first came to Germany in 1979, could speak next to no German at all. I understood most, as I had learned German as a kid, but once I was at school with only English speaking friends, I pretty well forgot all.
But two years of having no alternative to speaking German helped a lot! Progress would have been a lot slower if I had, had the option to switch to English.

If you enjoy mild weather, lots of cultural activities, having the option to visit other countries in a very short time, enjoy a town that still has a lot of its old character, and not everything replaced with new exchangeable buildings, you should enjoy Freiburg very much.

I enjoyed every visit to Freiburg very much, never was disappointed.

[Stevenn]

Originally Posted by CountryBumpkin. Well if you are not expecting miracles, and have a reasonable amount of patience, you should do fine! Don´t know what some have against Freiburg, I find that a wonderful town. Is of course not compareable to Berlin, but it is a very typical university town here in Germany. Lots of students from all over, many social activities, one of the mildest regions in all of Germany. Berlin in comparison would be like Siberia. Also you are in a border region, very close to Switzerland and France, also Austria is not that far away. Just up the hills and you are in the Blackforest region where there are plenty of opportunities for winter sport. Being a university town people are usually rather helpful, when they notice someone is not so firm in German. Also the fear of missing out when your German is not perfect, I can not agree on that. When I first came to Germany in 1979, could speak next to no German at all. I understood most, as I had learned German as a kid, but once I was at school with only English speaking friends, I pretty well forgot all. But two years of having no alternative to speaking German helped a lot! Progress would have been a lot slower if I had, had the option to switch to English. If you enjoy mild weather, lots of cultural activities, having the option to visit other countries in a very short time, enjoy a town that still has a lot of its old character, and not everything replaced with new exchangeable buildings, you should enjoy Freiburg very much. I enjoyed every visit to Freiburg very much, never was disappointed.

I made those same inferences, from what I was reading, but sometimes that can be all rather misleading. It's exactly the picture I have in mind. The first six month will be tough, but it'll certainly be worth it, if Freiburg is as you say. Thanks for the comments.

[Antrodemus]

Originally Posted by Stevenn The following may sound all too naive. It should do, in so many ways, take it as “the idealised case”, first approximations, or whatever, i.e. to be ground down into something far more practical.

I'm going to pick this apart as you asked.

Why Germany: 1.To learn German as a research language

Not a bad idea.

2. To go to Freiburg (or possibly Heidelberg) to take part in the intellectual life at the Philosophy faculty of the university, in some non-affiliated/informal way (i.e. E Husserl and M Heidegger held professorships there, and phenomenology is my area of interest)

Sounds great. Bear in mind that German academia is extremely snobbish, and they won't take you seriously unless you have numerous academic titles and use them as obnoxiously as they do. On a positive note, there are always public lectures in various university departments, so you may get lucky if you follow departmental announcements. The best way in would be to make contact with a professor (Lehrstuhl / department chair), express interest, and get on the appropriate mailing list. I'm on some of these for modern German history, and get all kinds of announcements and invitations.

Heidelberg and Freiburg are both beautiful towns with great universities, and the south-west is (in my opinion) probably the nicest part of Germany to live in (I currently live in the north). There are quite a lot of anglophone expats in both. Freiburg is notable for being the sunniest corner of Germany, and the proximity to France is very, very nice (I used to live on the border, but elsewhere).

3. Cultural life (German-language), from Kant to Holderlin, Schubert (lieder) to Rilke, Schlusnus to Wagner ... I can go on.

All good.

The plan: Go to the South-West, look for mundane employment that perhaps the locals aren’t willing to do (as happens so often here in the UK - you know, the anything-above-a-sewer move), during which time I’ll be making preparations, suitable contacts, etc. on the way to becoming a private TEFL teacher. I’m CELTA certified, and have the relevant experience, albeit a long time ago. (I don’t want to work in a lang. school. I hate working in lang. schools )

This is the problematic part. You don't want to do what the locals are willing to do, because there are Russians with PhDs, MDs or other superfluous qualifications that aren't recognised in Germany doing them for €4 an hour. In a nutshell, pay in Germany in high-education/high-demand fields is very good, but pay in unskilled occupations is absolutely terrible. All most salaries/wages have undergone a period of suppression/stagnation (depending on how you look at it) in recent years/decades, causing the standard of living vis-a-vis inflation to slip somewhat for many people, though having a beneficial effect on German exports. The German labour market is highly regulated (perhaps one of the most regulated in Europe), and (usually) three year traineeships (Ausbildungen) or apprenticeships are required even for very low level jobs. Germany's vocational education system does its job very well, but it doesn't allow for much flexibility, and it has been criticised as being outmoded (it is somewhat medieval in its character). What matters in Germany isn't what you can do, but what formal qualifications you have. Having said all that, Heidelberg has quite a lot of tourism, and you might actually get what the Germans call a '€400 job' (€400 a month, and the state pays your health insurance and pension costs--very popular for employers). A friend of mine recently had a job like this in a shop in Heidelberg, working about 10 hours a week. That's exceptional pay for a service job in Germany. You might do the same.

Language teaching in Germany is a whole other issue. You won't have any difficulty at all finding work, but the working conditions are often poor and it's hard to live as a freelance English teacher. Oh, yes, freelance. That is how they do it. You have to buy your own health insurance, pay your own taxes, pay your own pension contributions (mandatory for freelance teachers), and subtract 19% VAT (Umsatzsteuer) from all contracts on your own. Most language schools treat their teachers like employees (or much worse), but offer none of the benefits. The vast majority of language teachers in Germany are 'self employed' in this sense. The school is not your employer, but your client. On the positive side, if you have experience and a CELTA, you should have an easy enough time getting hours. You don't even need the CELTA, but it helps a lot. You just need to be a native English speakers who is able to teach and (preferably) has some experience. I know I make it sound dire, and it is in the long term, but it is not a bad idea if you just want to do it for a couple of years. If you don't want to work in a language school, you can try a university, but they will be much pickier about your degrees. If you're the academic type though, it might suit you. Keep in mind though that they will limit your hours to just a few if you are lucky enough to get in, as they don't want people suing for proper positions with benefits (it has happened). (I teach in a German university, but I won't tell you which one hehe.)

Some specific questions: Are there more casual i.e. crap jobs in these student areas?

Probably not. German students are overwhelmingly middle class and usually don't work menial jobs (or admit to having to do so if they do). I know this sounds harsh, but I always ask my own students if they have any work experience or jobs on the side and they almost laugh. The people that do the bad jobs are most likely not students.

Will my basic conversational German we an impediment to any menial employment whatever?

Yes, it will. However, you might make it in retail (dealing with tourists) in a spot like Heidelberg.

Is this plan, or parts thereof, at all doable i.e. with the appropriate planning, enterprise and persistence?

Yes, it's absolutely doable. I've done my best to point out some of the nasty bits with appropriate cynicism. If that doesn't discourage you, then go for it. You're really barking up the wrong tree, however. What you need is Toytown Germany, a popular forum for anglophone expats in Germany.

Read through the archive and you will find all of your answers. If you don't find them, post there. Be warned though, some of the users are 10x as cynical as myself, and rather nasty to new users, especially if they ask naive questions. It's really unfair in my opinion...where should someone start if not with a simple question?

Cheers, all responses welcomed.

No worries.

[CountryBumpkin.]

Could that be you are suggesting "read only, but don´t post anything?" On that basis one could then close the forum. Extremes one can find everywhere, but if you only go by them, might as well put your head in the sand. In my opinion.

[Stevenn]

Originally Posted by Antrodemus I'm going to pick this apart as you asked. Not a bad idea. Sounds great. Bear in mind that German academia is extremely snobbish, and they won't take you seriously unless you have numerous academic titles and use them as obnoxiously as they do. On a positive note, there are always public lectures in various university departments, so you may get lucky if you follow departmental announcements. The best way in would be to make contact with a professor (Lehrstuhl / department chair), express interest, and get on the appropriate mailing list. I'm on some of these for modern German history, and get all kinds of announcements and invitations. Heidelberg and Freiburg are both beautiful towns with great universities, and the south-west is (in my opinion) probably the nicest part of Germany to live in (I currently live in the north). There are quite a lot of anglophone expats in both. Freiburg is notable for being the sunniest corner of Germany, and the proximity to France is very, very nice (I used to live on the border, but elsewhere). All good. This is the problematic part. You don't want to do what the locals are willing to do, because there are Russians with PhDs, MDs or other superfluous qualifications that aren't recognised in Germany doing them for €4 an hour. In a nutshell, pay in Germany in high-education/high-demand fields is very good, but pay in unskilled occupations is absolutely terrible. All most salaries/wages have undergone a period of suppression/stagnation (depending on how you look at it) in recent years/decades, causing the standard of living vis-a-vis inflation to slip somewhat for many people, though having a beneficial effect on German exports. The German labour market is highly regulated (perhaps one of the most regulated in Europe), and (usually) three year traineeships (Ausbildungen) or apprenticeships are required even for very low level jobs. Germany's vocational education system does its job very well, but it doesn't allow for much flexibility, and it has been criticised as being outmoded (it is somewhat medieval in its character). What matters in Germany isn't what you can do, but what formal qualifications you have. Having said all that, Heidelberg has quite a lot of tourism, and you might actually get what the Germans call a '€400 job' (€400 a month, and the state pays your health insurance and pension costs--very popular for employers). A friend of mine recently had a job like this in a shop in Heidelberg, working about 10 hours a week. That's exceptional pay for a service job in Germany. You might do the same. Language teaching in Germany is a whole other issue. You won't have any difficulty at all finding work, but the working conditions are often poor and it's hard to live as a freelance English teacher. Oh, yes, freelance. That is how they do it. You have to buy your own health insurance, pay your own taxes, pay your own pension contributions (mandatory for freelance teachers), and subtract 19% VAT (Umsatzsteuer) from all contracts on your own. Most language schools treat their teachers like employees (or much worse), but offer none of the benefits. The vast majority of language teachers in Germany are 'self employed' in this sense. The school is not your employer, but your client. On the positive side, if you have experience and a CELTA, you should have an easy enough time getting hours. You don't even need the CELTA, but it helps a lot. You just need to be a native English speakers who is able to teach and (preferably) has some experience. I know I make it sound dire, and it is in the long term, but it is not a bad idea if you just want to do it for a couple of years. If you don't want to work in a language school, you can try a university, but they will be much pickier about your degrees. If you're the academic type though, it might suit you. Keep in mind though that they will limit your hours to just a few if you are lucky enough to get in, as they don't want people suing for proper positions with benefits (it has happened). (I teach in a German university, but I won't tell you which one hehe.) Probably not. German students are overwhelmingly middle class and usually don't work menial jobs (or admit to having to do so if they do). I know this sounds harsh, but I always ask my own students if they have any work experience or jobs on the side and they almost laugh. The people that do the bad jobs are most likely not students. Yes, it will. However, you might make it in retail (dealing with tourists) in a spot like Heidelberg. Yes, it's absolutely doable. I've done my best to point out some of the nasty bits with appropriate cynicism. If that doesn't discourage you, then go for it. You're really barking up the wrong tree, however. What you need is Toytown Germany, a popular forum for anglophone expats in Germany. Read through the archive and you will find all of your answers. If you don't find them, post there. Be warned though, some of the users are 10x as cynical as myself, and rather nasty to new users, especially if they ask naive questions. It's really unfair in my opinion...where should someone start if not with a simple question? No worries.

Hi, thanks for the considered reply. I’ll treat it sequentially, if I may, as I’m not yet “quote competent” , and there were too many good points in there to have me screw it all up.

1. On the philosophy faculty, and all that: it’s probably prudent, on arrival, to go for a bottom-up approach, i.e. go to the public lectures, meet some grad student, and go from there. That way I’ll get to know how it all works, before commiting some hideous social crime. I have a BA English, and MA Modern French Thought, if that counts for anything in Germany. Probably not  (Although most of my MA was spent on German thinkers, weirdly enough.) I have also recently finished (after 2yrs) the bulk of what is going to be a future Phd thesis (I hope), so I would be interested in floating some of the ideas in that. So long as the Grad students are reasonably accomadating it should be okay. Frieburg, I hear, is a pretty friendly place (famous last words).

2. Jobs: I’m going to rephrase what I wrote as I may not have expressed myself clearly enough. What I meant to say was something like:
(i)In Britain, where there are university towns, there are many casual jobs, either filled by locals, students or immigrants. In university towns in Germany, are there such jobs, which I might apply for? The fact that students think such jobs beneath them would, in fact, be to my benefit.
Also, sure I would work full-time for $4 dollars in the first few months, that is, while I improve my language skills, and can secure accomadation and a residency permit. After all, if I'm not able to support myself, I'l be on a train to Wales in no time.

(ii)Alternatively, there’s the tourist (or temporary) positions, you mention: I’m going to Germany in May/June so that’s an option. I thought my language skills would rule that out. What about a crappy job in a Hotel, until I can get something better? Could I get a couple of $400 jobs, or is that problematic?
No minimum wage in Germany, then, I take it?

(iv) Teaching. Ah, teaching! Oh, how I hate teaching! I would do it to stay in Germany, however. But now, the picture you paint makes it seem more hassle than it’s worth. So much time taken planning lessons, and so mechanical, too. For me, it has much to do with the sociology of it all, if you like being in that environment, it fits the bill, if not – like me – it becomes a struggle feigning the required levels of enthusiasm. I don’t do bullshitting well.
Wishing you all the best in your own employment, though, of course


I’m a bit confused as to the best course of action now. Thanks again for all your help, Antrodemus. Pretty enlightening really.




And this one goes out to everyone:

1)Are they any websites for Job centres, or their German equivalent, out there?

2)Is there any governmental material in English about German employment law etc.?

I’m going to be away for a few weeks, so cannot response to any posts for a while. Cheers.