[ToDo]

Originally Posted by ededed No, of course not. This isn't North Korea!! There has been very little crime - comparatively - during the world cup. The more intelligent question is "can this be maintained after the world cup"? Probably not - but it would be a better country if it could.

My reference to the media gag is more to do with FIFA, the sport mafia that has no doubt taken over the workings of SA during the WC.

Outside of the world cup, South Africa is known as having 50 murders every day so my point is – where are they noted or is there an attitude of denial ? Seems (outside the WC) the media only report the real shockers (I say that in context of the SA crime).

Of course, unless you are Paris Hilton


I guess the comparison to Korea is that criminals are caught and punished there

[ToDo]

Originally Posted by whalewatcher Have you ever tried living in continuously hot weather, or have you just holidayed in it? After a few years in Cape Town I started to find it incredibly tiring. It slows you down mentally and physically. You feel dirty all the time. Also forget about those long summer evenings you're accustomed to. It's dark early. When it's light enough to do a spot of gardening it's too hot to. I concur with the other posters. I moved to SA in 1995, but moved back to the UK a couple of years ago with two young kids. I just see the environment and prospects as being much better here than over there for them. Many of our SA friends see it the same way. People are too much encouraged to run down the UK. Whereas for most people in the world it would be a dream come true. Conversely people here are given far too rosy a view of SA -that vibrancy is only skin deep.

Yes, I agree that the Brits are not too patriotic.

Of course the UK has its negatives and a lot of people we talk to are not sure what the UK is becoming. A country of handouts to immigrants that cheat the benefits system. Let’s hope we are starting to wake up to all that and cap the immigration.

My personal outlook is that the EU dictating as to how the UK does what, when, why - is a nightmare. A couple of months back we (the UK) were told that we have to provide benefits to known terrorist suspects and their families living here.

Again, in my opinion – PCism and Health & Safety (jobs for the boys – sorry – for the girls ) is nothing short of crazy.

I am commenting on these issues to attempt to offer our reasons why we would even consider moving to SA (or other country).

Of course, the UK has many positives and I think the Scots have a very negative outlook towards their country.

Of course there are moments, such as Germany vs. England

[ToDo]

Originally Posted by kathyd I lived in S.Africa for 23 years. My husband is S.African and my children were born there. We have been back in the Uk [N.Ireland] for 9 years and are moving to live in Spain in August this year. I would just like to make one point . People who have been brought up in the Uk have no concept of what the crime is like in S.Africa. They find it hard to imagine that even when there is a crime sometimes the police never arrive. I loved S.Africa for all those years untill it became impossible to have a normal life. When you lose your freedom then it does not matter if you are living in a beautiful country because you cannot enjoy it. You are constantly looking over your shoulder and on your guard and eventually it just wears you out . We had 2 bad experiences ,myself and my kids when Tony my husband was overseas. A friend of mine was held at knife point and tied to a chair for 30 mins while they discussed wither to finish her off or not . I could tell you other horror stories that happened in the more affluent suburbs but there is no point. It broke my heart to leave but my husband and I will never go back . Sorry to be negative but there are other beautiful countries in the world that have nice climates that are safe .

Thank you Kathy,

You don’t have to apologise for speaking the truth to me

We live in a world where spin doctors rule and bankers get loans from tax-payers and tax-payers are declined mortgages from banks. Politicians focus on spending cuts to – police, health and education whilst they (politicians) abuse their expense accounts.
I see South Africa as no different except that poverty there is extreme which we don’t have in the UK.

Have been reading the news regarding the potential Eskom strike and their staff have spent millions on WC tickets and have had 85% wage increases for certain staff and electricity costs are looking to increase close to 100% over a few years whilst they will pay high flying labour lawyers to dispute a wage increase for the workers. It seems like a global problem for non performing executives to get paid silly bonuses for failing businesses.

I’ll get off my soapbox now

Hey, anybody know a tropical island where we can go an grow coconuts (I hope that term is not offensive to anyone – must be the PC in me )

[ededed]

Originally Posted by ToDo Thank you Kathy, You don’t have to apologise for speaking the truth to me Have been reading the news regarding the potential Eskom strike and their staff have spent millions on WC tickets and have had 85% wage increases for certain staff and electricity costs are looking to increase close to 100% over a few years whilst they will pay high flying labour lawyers to dispute a wage increase for the workers. It seems like a global problem for non performing executives to get paid silly bonuses for failing businesses.

This situation has been created by management taking too high salary increases and the union have smelt blood - and are demanding increases that will bankrupt the company. A typically African mentality, I'm afraid.

I read the earlier post about a 13 year old being unable to ride a bike - this made me laugh so hard I almost popped a lung. Utter tosh, sorry to say. My daughter is 6 and she can pull wheelies.

Originally Posted by ToDo My reference to the media gag is more to do with FIFA, the sport mafia that has no doubt taken over the workings of SA during the WC. Outside of the world cup, South Africa is known as having 50 murders every day so my point is – where are they noted or is there an attitude of denial ? Seems (outside the WC) the media only report the real shockers (I say that in context of the SA crime). Of course, unless you are Paris Hilton I guess the comparison to Korea is that criminals are caught and punished there

90% of murder, rape and serious crime takes place in the townships. Check out the FCO website and they paint a pretty accurate picture of life in SA. You won't read about daily murders in English press because the people typically being murdered aren't English, or middle-class white folk. When someone who fits this profile is killed, it makes front page news. We are seeing a higher than usual capture rate of these people too which is reasurring, but more needs to be done to prevent it from happening in the first place.

FIFA (despite their desire to the contrary) certainly can't impose a media ban, especially a media so desperate to prove their warnings of doom to be correct.

Here is the FCO link...

http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-...a/south-africa

[ToDo]

Originally Posted by ededed This situation has been created by management taking too high salary increases and the union have smelt blood - and are demanding increases that will bankrupt the company. A typically African mentality, I'm afraid. I read the earlier post about a 13 year old being unable to ride a bike - this made me laugh so hard I almost popped a lung. Utter tosh, sorry to say. My daughter is 6 and she can pull wheelies. 90% of murder, rape and serious crime takes place in the townships. Check out the FCO website and they paint a pretty accurate picture of life in SA. You won't read about daily murders in English press because the people typically being murdered aren't English, or middle-class white folk. When someone who fits this profile is killed, it makes front page news. We are seeing a higher than usual capture rate of these people too which is reasurring, but more needs to be done to prevent it from happening in the first place. FIFA (despite their desire to the contrary) certainly can't impose a media ban, especially a media so desperate to prove their warnings of doom to be correct. Here is the FCO link... http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-...a/south-africa

At the risk of this thread getting into the typical South Africa "debate" - 2 things



1, It is the 10% crime that concerns me (the balance of the 90%)

2. Higher than usual - sorry again but this starts to sound like - yes but statistics.

Thanks for the input but I am one these - show me the money don't dazzle me with stats people. I guess living in the UK and having stats to tell us how great things are (were ) meantime the REAL situation is that we were / are gazillions in debt.

Besides - statistics told everybody how great the English team were when in real terms they are overpaid, highly egotistical, non-performers.

Hope you are enjoying the cup.

[ededed]

Then don't come. You need to be happy - I am, and I'm here.

[Tegwyn]

Come on Ed, you have indicated you are wondering if you are going to have to make that big decision after the WC. My dearest ones over there don't seem to find the crime issues as innocuous as you do for some reason. Perhaps it is because they have been exposed. Statistics are not a comfort when you end up being one, so ToDo, it really boils down to making an educated decision. Still think you need a trip to see for yourself though.

[ededed]

Originally Posted by Tegwyn Come on Ed, you have indicated you are wondering if you are going to have to make that big decision after the WC. My dearest ones over there don't seem to find the crime issues as innocuous as you do for some reason. Perhaps it is because they have been exposed. Statistics are not a comfort when you end up being one, so ToDo, it really boils down to making an educated decision. Still think you need a trip to see for yourself though.

I have Teg, but this WC has been brilliant. I have said many, many times that although crime is reported as an issue, I have yet to see with my own eyes the reality of it - and that remains. 3 years, and still no-one I know has been murdered, raped, broken into or carjacked which doesn't sound like the country that is reported here. I almost feel guilty for not having been a victim, but I simply don't see the horror and stories of a war-torn country that others report.

As I have said - the fear of this happening one day may drive us away, but right now we are undecided. Your point is right - come and see. But my point remains - as of today, life is good. Tomorrow, who knows...?

But - don't give me this rubbish about not being able to ride a bike in the street - that's crap, and anyone who lives here knows it.

[Tegwyn]

Ed, I am happy for you that crime is not a factor in your life and I sincerely hope it remains so. Even though you have not been exposed, you have to appreciate that a significant number have and many have left the country as a result. Maybe that bike issue had to do with living in an area where that was not an option. Obviously not applicable to all, but as we all know, you have to be able to afford to live in a safer environment to enjoy the benefits. My sister lives in a gated community and has felt safe for the most part. Now they do require that people wondering around the gardens (including children) wear these necklaces that will raise the alarm if pressed. They have security guards all around to ensure those kids have freedom to play within. Roaming or riding out on the street to see friends outside their gated community is obviously not an option for them. I can't speak for the Cape but I know Joburg is not the place to be anymore. I think it has simply become the Soweto extention and the issues that were locked there are now spread around. My sister tells me they will be moving to the Cape some time next year when her partner retires.

[Daxk]

Within the area that Ed lives in, there have been reports of cyclists being dispossesed of their bikes, kids being robbed of bikes and cellphones,
so no, Ed may be happy to let his kids ride bikes around thee, if I lived in the area, my child would not.

[whalewatcher]

Originally Posted by ToDo Of course the UK has its negatives and a lot of people we talk to are not sure what the UK is becoming...handouts to immigrants...EU dictating..terrorist suspects...PCism...Health & Safety...reasons why we would even consider moving to SA (or other country)

Having been back in the UK a couple of years I'm as capable of a fit of Daily Mail Umbrage as anyone else (although I'm pleased with some of the new Govt's stances). However I regularly remind myself that the things people moan about here are utterly trivial compared to the things going on in SA. There simply is no comparison.

As far as SA is concerned, it is likely that if you're not in the township then you are only likely to be indirectly affected by the violence and sexual abuse - but that indirectly packs a hell of a punch.

But there's a lot else to consider about SA before fleeing crumbling Blighty for its swimming pool lifestyle - the horrific road accident rate; corruption on a scale that makes the MPs expenses scandal look like shoplifting from a newsagents; enormous illegal immigration and violent friction between communities; a catastrophic skills shortage; infrastructural decay (of the water system particularly); pervasive cluelessness and inefficiency that grinds you down a tiny bit more every day; Julius Malema becoming the brightest star in the political firmament...

At least there's the Spur.

If the prevailing South African socio-economic, environmental, and political conditions were suddenly to appear in the UK, Brits would think the end of the world had come.

If the UK's finished, then go with or other country before SA. Although I had a good think a few years ago (coming back to the UK wasn't the only option), and I couldn't think of anywhere better to ride out the coming decades of economic deflation, soil depletion, water scarcity, and skyrocketing oil prices. Well, maybe Norway, but they hunt whales.

[ededed]

*sigh*

Fine. Whatever.

Come here and you will die, your kids will be eaten and your house taken over by ANCYL thugs.

Happy now?

I wrote a long and impassioned response, but deleted it before posting. I just can't be bothered to go through this argument again.

Unsubscribe. Cheerio.

[shirlw]

Hi OP

ME-Dundee lass born and bred,been living in SA for 17 years now.

OH-English born but living in SA since he was 7 so nearly 40 years on.

KIDS-all born here in SA now 15,13 and 7(boys).

SCHOOL-Private all the way costs me R12000 P/M.Govt.schooling not an option.

MY HOUSE-worth 1.5 mill(to rent same would be around R10000 P/M) 4 b/room,2 lounges,pool,servants qrtrs,aircon,fully walled,barbed wire,burglar bars and security gates all round and burglar alarm.We live 160kms North of Durban.

MEDICAL AID-Private for a family of 5 costs us around R6000 P/M,government healthcare not an option.

BUSINESS-We own 2,no black partners,I can employ who I want and no BEE restrictions.Having said that,we would probably grow expedentially(spelling ?) if we were BEE compliant but after being embezzled twice in the last 2 years to the tune of 750,000 and 500,000 respectively by those so-called "previously disadvantaged",I am a bit reluctant to let go the reigns for a 3rd time.The law did not favour our plight and the perpetrators walk free today!

LIFESTYLE-We live very well as in eating out when we like,taking holidays when we can get away,and we are a 2 car family.Kids are very restricted unlike their cousins of similar age in UK.They cannot take a bus to the local mall and take in a movie etc. we have to fetch and carry them everywhere.They do not walk to friends homes as it is not safe so again-fetch and carry.They have bicycles they cannot ride unless we drive them to a "safe" area.This is all they have known so they generally do not question their lack of freedom but having come from UK myself,I want more for them and know this is not a "normal" way of life.

SECURITY-Our businesses have been broken into (lost count) approximately 20 times in the last 5 years where computers,money,vehicles,stock etc have been stolen.Our home has been broken into 6 times in the last 5 years and been cleaned out of all electronic equipment,bedding,linen etc.My husband was hi-jacked at our front gate 2 years ago,thankfully they took the vehicle and left him alone.My staff have had handbags,cell phones stolen from their offices by "customers".I can go on but the bottom line is,NOT ONCE has anyone been caught or convicted of any of these crimes committed against me and mine.The same cannot be said if this were to have happened in a more civilised country of that I am certain.

EARNINGS-To cover our "comfortable"lifestyle,we take home a joint income of around R100,000 p/m and we are considered very fortunate.

THE PLAN-getting the hell out of here by December to go to Australia,would have gone sooner but with the world economy going belly-up,it has been an upward battle to sell up and we are still climbing that hill.

THE REALITY-There is nowhere in the world that you would be completely safe and free of violence,drugs etc. etc.and to think otherwise would be utter stupidity.BUT lowering the "statistics" to an acceptable level within a lifestyle is a more realistic goal.

[ToDo]

Originally Posted by whalewatcher Having been back in the UK a couple of years I'm as capable of a fit of Daily Mail Umbrage as anyone else (although I'm pleased with some of the new Govt's stances). However I regularly remind myself that the things people moan about here are utterly trivial compared to the things going on in SA. There simply is no comparison. As far as SA is concerned, it is likely that if you're not in the township then you are only likely to be indirectly affected by the violence and sexual abuse - but that indirectly packs a hell of a punch. But there's a lot else to consider about SA before fleeing crumbling Blighty for its swimming pool lifestyle - the horrific road accident rate; corruption on a scale that makes the MPs expenses scandal look like shoplifting from a newsagents; enormous illegal immigration and violent friction between communities; a catastrophic skills shortage; infrastructural decay (of the water system particularly); pervasive cluelessness and inefficiency that grinds you down a tiny bit more every day; Julius Malema becoming the brightest star in the political firmament... At least there's the Spur. If the prevailing South African socio-economic, environmental, and political conditions were suddenly to appear in the UK, Brits would think the end of the world had come. If the UK's finished, then go with or other country before SA. Although I had a good think a few years ago (coming back to the UK wasn't the only option), and I couldn't think of anywhere better to ride out the coming decades of economic deflation, soil depletion, water scarcity, and skyrocketing oil prices. Well, maybe Norway, but they hunt whales.

Hi Whalewatcher,

My post wasn’t intended to attack you or your opinion and if I did - I apologise. I have looked at many of the threads with the South African topic and most become heated (as it seems this one has).

The negatives I expressed re the UK are the ones we feel motivate us to consider leaving. We are lucky that we live in a small village and the people are great, we are very secure and leave our doors and back gate open most of the time. Our son plays in the street and often goes to the wee burn at the end of the road with his mates and they build dams and sail toy boats.

The last crime in the village was two years ago when a car was broken into and the radio stolen. The radio was recovered the following day as the thief was trying to sell it in the next village. Nobody hurt.

It sounds like some folk live in areas in South Africa that they consider safe (within the boundaries of their complex) but it does seem that these are expensive. Personally I see this as unreal as you can not live in your fortress all the time and obviously if we were to move we would want to explore and travel the country.

We have spoken to a few South Africans and they have officered their opinion
(which may be a bit biased as they live here now) and all these people have said that in South Africa white people live with their suitcases packed ready and there are two possibilities of using them,

When you become a victim of crime
When the blacks go all-out for the whites

This is all high risk stuff that I am not sure is the type of risk we want to take in exchange for sunshine that is available elsewhere.

It is true that we should do a look-see trip but at this stage we need to make up our minds if we want to pursue the consideration of South Africa before moving to that stage.

It sounds like a great place but there is that reoccurring warning – crime

[whalewatcher]

Hi Todo,

Don't worry,I don't feel attacked at all. I can be a real windbag but I was just trying to make the point that escaping from the ills of the UK is the worst reason for choosing SA, and that crime is just one of many serious issues. I'll stick with the British frying pan having felt the heat of the SA fire!

To move to SA at this point one would need a passion for the place and the people which transcends any quality of life issues. The pull should be magnetic. If you've somehow come home from the library with a book on learning Zulu or Xhosa then you could be on the right track.