[arah]

Hi all,

I'm a 27, single, a lawyer & moving to Jo'burg in a couple of weeks and curious to know where/how to meet people who are seriously open minded to socialise with (& who aren't my colleagues) while I'm out there.

I'm not completely new to Jo'burg - I've been working out there for a few weeks a month since March, but my company has finally asked me to relocate fully as of mid October.

Security issues aside, I think Jo'burg is a great place, but in all honesty my experiences of 'living' there have been slightly weird. I've done my fair share of travelling for work and holidays to other parts of Africa, to Asia, the Americas, Europe etc, plus I grew up in London and I now live in Berlin. In none of these places have I been so aware of myself, and felt so out of place.

To explain, I'm Black-British (or whatever the PC term for this is) and in my time working in Jo'burg, I felt/feel ostracised by both the black locals (for hanging out with my mostly white colleagues & friends and living in Sandton) and the white SAs (for the exact same reason). By no real design on my part, the people I know and love in various parts of the world are from all different races/cultures/backgrounds, and my family itself is made up of marriages and relationships which would look good on an advert for a rainbow nation

Add to this growing up in London, I'm unsurprisingly used to everyone hanging out with whomever they please, and usually extremely oblivious to race issues but ignoring the clear the absence of socialising between the various race groups in Jo'burg and comments about 'how come' I do what I do or live where I live or hang out with the people I hang out with is near impossible. It got so bad that when one of my best friends from Germany came to visit (white, blue eyed, also usually oblivious to these things - you get the picture) he panicked over making the usual friendly gestures/holding in public because of the number of stares we got!!

I find this state of affairs strange, even considering history so I'd be grateful for your views on this, advice on how I can address my deep set paranoia (if that's all this is about) and suggestions on where I can meet people who don't give a rat's arse about what I look like, or what they look like!! Thanks,


arah

[Daxk]

Suff Africans are xenophobic about colour.
They burnt a lot of African people from other Countries in Africa a year or so ago.
OR...

You are possibly strikingly attractive and your German friend was too.

[Pablo]

Originally Posted by arah ... and in my time working in Jo'burg, I felt/feel ostracised by both the black locals (for hanging out with my mostly white colleagues & friends and living in Sandton) and the white SAs (for the exact same reason).

Did they tell you that you were being ostracised? And did they tell you why you were being ostracised? It wasn't quite clear from your post whether these were things you surmised, or whether you had been told.

the people I know and love in various parts of the world are from all different races/cultures/backgrounds, and my family itself is made up of marriages and relationships which would look good on an advert for a rainbow nation

I think that this kind of sophistication does not come naturally to many people. Many people define themselves precisely by those categories you highlight -- race, culture, background. To then treat those defining factors as irrelevant takes a good deal of intellectual effort.

...advice on how I can address my deep set paranoia (if that's all this is about)

When you say "paranoia" I assume you are suggesting that you are not seeing things in their proper proportion. Is that what you're suggesting?

and suggestions on where I can meet people who don't give a rat's arse about what I look like, or what they look like!!

The well-educated and the well-travelled? The trouble is, there probably aren't that many people who are well-travelled and well-educated all congregating in one place. The arty theatre set might be one suggestion, though possibly your interests might not lie in that direction. Other than that, I think you'll find that Jo'burg, and South Africa generally, is really quite parochial.

[arah]

Originally Posted by Daxk Suff Africans are xenophobic about colour. They burnt a lot of African people from other Countries in Africa a year or so ago. OR... You are possibly strikingly attractive and your German friend was too.

Very clearly the latter

Seriously though, thanks for getting straight to the point - good to know.

[arah]

Originally Posted by Pablo Did they tell you that you were being ostracised? And did they tell you why you were being ostracised? It wasn't quite clear from your post whether these were things you surmised, or whether you had been told..

Funnily enough, sometimes they did. I had a few black locals ask me why I couldn't speak any of the native SA languages and when I explained I was not South African, they simply ignored me and ranted on about how I'd clearly lost my roots - faintly amusing if a little difficult for me to grasp. On the flip side, I've also simply worked it out from attitudes and snide comments - usually a little de-sensitised to ignorant, throw-away comments but even my thick skin (evidently) isn't thick enough.

Originally Posted by Pablo When you say "paranoia" I assume you are suggesting that you are not seeing things in their proper proportion. Is that what you're suggesting?

Wondering more than suggesting - like I said, I don't think I'm overly sensitive about these things. I've lived in Montreal, Nigeria, grew up in London, and now live in Berlin, and it's just that I've never before felt so defined by what I look like. Nonetheless, I'm willing to accept the possibility that I'm missing a veiled key point e.g. perhaps there are rational cultural explanations without any underlying focus on colour.....?

Originally Posted by Pablo The well-educated and the well-travelled? The trouble is, there probably aren't that many people who are well-travelled and well-educated all congregating in one place. The arty theatre set might be one suggestion, though possibly your interests might not lie in that direction. Other than that, I think you'll find that Jo'burg, and South Africa generally, is really quite parochial.

Great. Can't wait to move In between I do love the theatre so may simply end up spending all my time in one, and hope for the best.

[Pablo]

Originally Posted by arah Funnily enough, sometimes they did. I have a few black locals ask me why I couldn't speak any of the native SA languages and when I explained I was not South African, they simply ignored me and ranted on about how I'd clearly lost my roots - faintly amusing if a little difficult for me to grasp. On the flip side, I've also simply worked it out from attitudes and snide comments - usually a little de-sensitised to ignorant, throw-away comments but even my thick skin (evidently) isn't thick enough.

I think you will find that there is a good deal of racism and sexism in SA, particularly from uneducated black males. Have you had comments directed at you in the street yet, or been touched up? Still, chances are you'll be driving most places if you live in Jo'burg, rather than walking or using public transport, so you should avoid the worst of it.

As for "rational cultural explanations", I think that culture (whatever that is) is not really rational, and nor are most people. Good that you like the theatre and arts. It is a place to start.

[Juggernaut]

Wondering more than suggesting - like I said, I don't think I'm overly sensitive about these things. I've lived in Montreal, Nigeria, grew up in London, and now live in Berlin, and it's just that I've never before felt so defined by what I look like. Nonetheless, I'm willing to accept the possibility that I'm missing a veiled key point e.g. perhaps there are rational cultural explanations without any underlying focus on colour.....?

Then again none of the cities you mentioned quite had our past.
Look at the flip side. I was born and bred in S.A. and I was amazed at peoples insensitivity to these things while on excursions out in the big bad world. Coming from a society where we were divided along racial lines for decades, the "colour blindness' of the people I encountered especially white people was weird. Probably more so in cosmopolitan cities like London, Munich or Paris etc. than the smaller towns. Bear in mind that your friend and yourself the current generation of South Africans were forcefully segregated as recently as 13 years ago. No one living ,I dare say have memories of a fully intergrated society. Even finding white and black lifelong best friends in S.A. within your age bracket would be a challenge.

I would agree with Pablo when it comes to sexism since traditionally most black males really tend to hold on to their ways. Mostly found in rural areas but because of pull factors to cities like JHB they abound in urban areas as well.
As for racism .Uneducated males and females from both black and white sides of the equation have to shoulder a share of the blame.

The language situation you encountered stems from the fact that native south african languages, including Afrikaans are coming under severe pressure from the widespread adoption of English amongst black language speakers. I know many black south africans that become extremely annoyed when they meet black children that cant speak a black language when its essentially the language their parents grew up with.
I would guess that black South Africans obviously not knowing your background, hear the accent and assume that you fall amongst the throngs of black South African that was born in S.A, grew up in exile or spent a prolonged period abroad. In their eyes you've now abandoned your native language and with it your african(ness) culture. strange but true.

Once you are settled hang in their you will soon find your niche and like minded individuals in Joburg.

[Tegwyn]

Jugs, why isn't tribalism mentioned along with the racism? The great divide in SA does not simply run along colour lines, tribes divide and separate pretty damned well too. Seen in Zambia, Zims, Kenya, Tanzania never mind SA. Some divides more hostile than others which causes a bit of tension. It is a fact of Southern Africa that people have been divided and classified and slotted into their assigned standard of life regardless of what they have to offer. Sexism across the board is also well and trucking along quite nicely.

[Stanley10]

Originally Posted by Tegwyn Sexism across the board is also well and trucking along quite nicely.

That's why white woman are included as previously disadvantaged for affirmative action purposes.

[Daxk]

Originally Posted by Stanley10 That's why white woman are included as previously disadvantaged for affirmative action purposes.

Exactly where on the scale do white women appear?Stan.

[ededed]

Hi - interesting post and some typically pertinent points from my esteemed colleagues.

If you are looking for a cool place to go in the evenings you can do a lot worse than Fashion TV in Cedar Square - I was there last week (clinging on to what is left of my youth) and there were quite a few mixed-race couples - but the whole vibe was very relaxed and lots of inter-racial groups were hanging out. I think these places exist and are becoming more prevalent, you just need to know where they are.

And damn - there were some fine looking ladies there!


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[arah]

Originally Posted by Juggernaut I would guess that black South Africans obviously not knowing your background, hear the accent and assume that you fall amongst the throngs of black South African that was born in S.A, grew up in exile or spent a prolonged period abroad. In their eyes you've now abandoned your native language and with it your african(ness) culture. strange but true.

Interesting perspective; not once that had sprung to mind but it does at least help me understand things a bit better.

And thanks for other points in your post - fast deciding that if I don't find a niche that suits, I'll simply create one from scratch!!

[arah]

Originally Posted by ededed If you are looking for a cool place to go in the evenings you can do a lot worse than Fashion TV in Cedar Square - And damn - there were some fine looking ladies there! </IMG>

Would have been more inclined if you told me there were some fine looking men, but never one to give up, I'll def try it out (purely for the cultural aspect of course....)

[arah]

Originally Posted by Pablo Have you had comments directed at you in the street yet, or been touched up?

Ehm, no touching up as yet!!

Seriously though, I do drive everywhere when I'm in Jo'burg and will continue to do so, so hopefully I can avoid the worst of it. The comments though are generally unavoidable although in all honesty I think in this regard, Jo'burg isn't as bad as say London, or NYC, soooo not really worth complaining about.

[Pablo]

Originally Posted by arah ... I think in this regard, Jo'burg isn't as bad as say London, or NYC, soooo not really worth complaining about.

On the point of sexual harassment and sexual violence, I beg to differ. Jo'burg is worse, particularly for young black women.