Juggs, I'm not just talking about these 4 positions. They just happened to be the ones brought up in this conversation. There as you know many many more situations just like this 4. And as far as the rest of the world goes they don't see or hear of any of this. The spot light on SA is going to be a short one (World Cup) and no one is going to be talking about A.A. When the Games are done it will slip back in to the darkness.

Good to know you are well.

How many more do you know of Hatfield?

What are you on about?

Ach, common, you can't be that obtuse - what do you think is going to happen once 2010 is done - we all go to fairyland? this is about real life and whats happening in real life in SA - no matter the size of the chip on (pablo's) your shoulder, we have to face reality, and reality is ZUMA is an unknown, his performance to date wonkey, and following the SOUTHERN AFRICAN pattern, SA WILL be a third world country, in the not too distant future!!!

And what "chip" might that be, Woocus? The only "chip" is that I have consistently objected to social and political discrimination of people according to the colour of their skin, and just because there now suddenly appears to be "good racial discrimination" in certain circles hasn't changed my long-standing opposition.

I really don't know why you have to refer to this as a chip on my shoulder.

As for Stanley's obtuseness, he tries to make an art of it -- sniping and sniping and sniping from the safety of Australia. He is an armchair revolutionary if ever there was one.

I am in total agreement with you that discriminating against a person because of race or colour is reprehensible, I believe we/anybody should be afforded the same opportunities in allareas on a level playing field. But to recognise a person as being black or coloured or white is not in itself racist, and to acknowledge their advantage/disadvantage in any situation is also not neccessarily racist. As I said earlier, I sensed in all your replies an unbrance which I found puzzling, and hence the comment re chip - maybe unfair, but with with maybe a more comprehensive rebuttal from you, it would help with our discussion, and my electronic picture of you. If I've offended, I apologise.

Woocus, of course there are natural differences between people. Furthermore, I seldom use the word "racist" except with irony since it has become such a boo-word, used by people to silence criticism or discussion. I am not quite clear what it is that you are waiting for me to rebut, but if you want to tell me then I'll answer more fully.

I know of a hand full myself, not in the same field mind you.

Just saying no one out side of SA sees or hears of BEE or AA. All you hear about is football,(Well and crime) and when the games are all finished SA will be out of the media spot light and things will continue down the road its on now.

Fact is most people outside of SA neither see nor hear of SA, and really who cares what they think. I just don't see why you are trying to link AA and the world cup. Was there a link for the rugby or cricket world cups?

Almost back to the Pabs of old.

Aw, you missed him. How sweet is that.

well I'm out side of SA and I care, and probably one or two others out there. I'm linking the fact that AA and BEE fly under the radar of the media to the out side world and that whats happening there is unfair. The world cup is the biggest media event held in SA and that would give them(media) a chance to show the world how F**ked up things are. Make sense now stan

Not really, however keep on banging the drum if it makes you happy.

Woocus lets not fool ourselves. S.A is a third world country. Ive often heard South africans echo your statement that "SA WILL be a third world country, in the not too distant future!!!".It merely serves to confirm that many of us have a total lack of understanding of how the majority of our countrymen live and have been living for decades.

We're a developing country .Rated among the Brazil's, and India's of this world. I always find it amusing when South Africans travel to countries north of our borders and say "I'm going to up to Africa next week". Where the heck do we think we are? North America ? Europe ?

Where are most of our expats... UK, USA, Canada, Aus/NZ. All first world countries. Were a developing nation very, very young in comparison to the aforementioned countries. We have learn from them and apply lessons to our own situation .A.A being a perfect example .
The U.S legislated affirmative action policies in the 1960's to help ease the ills of their segregated past so why would they listen to your whining about A.A ? Especially since the extent of our discrimination was on a much larger scale. We should have had A.A on steroids.

The correct application thereof is required however and not the blatant nepotism and cronyism we so often confronted with.

...And it is a failure

...Which would be a failure on steroids

Ah. Just like all those old socialists who claim, "but the problem was, it wasn't *true* socialism." This is the perennial excuse of ideologues and social engineers when confronted with their own failure: they refuse to acknowledge it, and insist that if only it had been done right, we would now be up there on the sunlit City on the Hill. Next time, Comrade, next time it will be better...