[Tegwyn]

I am always dumbfounded that people will hide their heads in the sand because "it" hasn't happened to them. Glad for them that it hasn't but don't sell an image of "it's not that bad". In Scotland, they have a law enforcement system that actually does work. I know this personally.

[Pablo]

Originally Posted by Spizz To date, we have been "lucky?" .... we are NOT complacent and make sure we take care and remain diligent as I think one should be where ever in the world you choose to live.

The mocking quote marks around "lucky", and the suggestion that it is the complacent and un-diligent who are the victims of crime is complacent.

A small price to pay...

I think it is when something does happen to you, or your children, that the price you pay becomes evident. Until then, you are paying no price at all.

Almost daily I see reported killings of sensible middle-class people in nice neighbourhoods in South Africa, happily going about their lives just as you are happily going about yours. Then suddenly BAM! - one dead baby on your hands. That, unfortunately, is how it works.

[Spizz]

Originally Posted by Tegwyn I am always dumbfounded that people will hide their heads in the sand because "it" hasn't happened to them. Glad for them that it hasn't but don't sell an image of "it's not that bad". In Scotland, they have a law enforcement system that actually does work. I know this personally.

I'm dumbfounded that you are dumbfounded. Why would you assume we are hiding our heads in the sand because we choose to live here? Do only you and the Saffers justifying their moves overseas have the monopoly on judgment?My wife (the OP) was trying to point out that there is no safe place to live, which quite frankly, I agree with wholeheartedly. IIRC, there are more burglaries, muggings and car thefts in Australia than South Africa, but Oz is paradise? Of course not, but be under no illusions that because I disagree with you, that our eyes are not wide open and we don't constantly evaluate our lives and situation.

Of course no where is perfect, and SA is no different. But some of the places I've lived and worked such as Swellendam and Vanrhynsdorp, are as quiet and as close to crime free as is possible anywhere in the world. Much better than the council estate sh!t hole I grew up in, that's for sure. So yes, 'it is not that bad', it is infact better. And the added bonus of my children not wearing hoody tops and hanging out in a car park at night just rounds it off. I just don't want to live anywhere else thank's very much.

I suppose that maybe because I never lived in Joburg during the good old days when you could leave your front door open at night, will my experience differ from others who have left. I live like a South African, not an expat, and have taken the time to learn about and talk with the many black people I work with. Maybe because I'm in construction and am vastly outnumbered by the poorest shack dwellers from Nyanga and Khayelitsha, do I feel I understand better the plight of the people better than most foreigners. These people also are gatvol of the crime and get mugged just like the rest of us. It is up to all of us to change it and I'm confident it will come. This place is full of goodness, I see it every day. In fact crime dropped hugely over the festive season, hopefully it continues and the decent people (the huge majority) can prosper and grow the country to the status it deserves.

So yes, modern day Cape Town is a vibrant, pulsating city and one I'd recommend to anyone to visit and try. I'm just back from the botanics now where I was chatting to a friend just returned from the UK with her young child. There was no way she was bringing up her daughter there. Does she also have her head in the sand? Or do we just have different perspectives? This place'll come right, leaving it won't help, staying and making it right is the only way.

In the mean time, I'll keep my eyes open and protect my family as best as possible.

[Spizz]

Originally Posted by Pablo The mocking quote marks around "lucky", and the suggestion that it is the complacent and un-diligent who are the victims of crime is complacent. I think it is when something does happen to you, or your children, that the price you pay becomes evident. Until then, you are paying no price at all. Almost daily I see reported killings of sensible middle-class people in nice neighbourhoods in South Africa, happily going about their lives just as you are happily going about yours. Then suddenly BAM! - one dead baby on your hands. That, unfortunately, is how it works.

It's certainly not mocking and it's certainly not complacent, Pablo. It's real life and it's happening around me. I've seen a guy shot here, I've also seen two guys crushed to death on my building site. And I'm far more worried about having an accident in the car than being a victim of a hi-jacking. It's just far more likely to happen. And a friend of my wife's baby drowned in her swimming pool last year, while my 3 year old fell in about a month ago after bumping into his cousin, I fished him out. What a shock, heartstopping and totally sobering. One can only stay vigilant I suppose. Life goes on!

[Pablo]

Originally Posted by Spizz there is no safe place to live

... which is not the same as saying that all places are equally dangerous.

there are more burglaries, muggings and car thefts in Australia than South Africa

And rapes? And murders? And hijackings? Did you check those figures too? I mean, if you're going to do statistics, don't you think you ought to do all of them?

...Much better than the council estate sh!t hole I grew up in

You don't compare like with like. I think you need to compare a South African "council estate shit hole" with the one in the UK you grew up in in order to make a proper comparison.

[Pablo]

Originally Posted by Spizz It's certainly not mocking and it's certainly not complacent

Then why the quote marks and question mark?

[Spizz]

Originally Posted by Pablo Then why the quote marks and question mark?

My wife wrote that but the sentiment seems pretty clear to me. Just read any of the posts on the forum and you'll see that we are all going to die horribly, the country has gone to pot. That we haven't surely means we are 'lucky'. Is that not the perception? My head is buried in the sand too apparently, because I don't feel 'lucky' and I don't view this place like everyone else. I've also now turned into an argument case and no doubt will be at the end of a free for all flaming because I resent the implications that I have my head up my arse and am merely 'lucky not to have been the victim of crime. I just can't see it yet, but I will when it happens.

Well I hope it doesn't. But the point I'm making is I've got a life to lead and a family to protect. My priorities, and the experiences I use to draw them from, are different from yours and the next guys. To label me or insinuate I am naive or uninformed is typical comment and one I take exception to. Sorry, but there it is.

[Spizz]

Originally Posted by Pablo ... You don't compare like with like. I think you need to compare a South African "council estate shit hole" with the one in the UK you grew up in in order to make a proper comparison.

And you cut and paste, and quote selectively!!! Who's perfect? And I don't live in a SA'n council estate, what does it have to do with my situation. Why should I compare with my situation? Comparing like for like, I grew up in a toilet and fell out of school at 15. I now have a holiday house in Hermanus and my children go to schools that actually take pride in wearing a uniform.

But please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to prove any global point or quote any stats Pablo. Everything just seems so one sided on here. I'm only saying my eyes are wide open and my viewpoint is different from yours, for the moment anyway. In the meantime, life is good.

[Pablo]

Originally Posted by Spizz My wife wrote that but the sentiment seems pretty clear to me. Just read any of the posts on the forum and you'll see that we are all going to die horribly, the country has gone to pot. That we haven't surely means we are 'lucky'. Is that not the perception? My head is buried in the sand too apparently, because I don't feel 'lucky' and I don't view this place like everyone else. I've also now turned into an argument case and no doubt will be at the end of a free for all flaming because I resent the implications that I have my head up my arse and am merely 'lucky not to have been the victim of crime. I just can't see it yet, but I will when it happens.

Ok, so it seems you are confirming my original point about "lucky".

But the point I'm making is I've got a life to lead and a family to protect.

I don't think anyone disputes that.

To label me or insinuate I am naive or uninformed is typical comment and one I take exception to.

Well as I said earlier, what I do rather "take exception to" is the suggestion that the life-wrecking crime that is so prevalent in South Africa can be avoided by being "diligent" and "not complacent." Of all the friends I know who have suffered from crime in SA, not one of them was not diligent about security. Not one of them was complacent. Not one of them was reckless about his or her own safety and the safety of the family. Yet it still happened.

So lucky without the sneering quote marks, yes. But lucky WITH the sneering quote marks is a big no, no. Because that's what it is. Luck. Not diligence. Not "being aware". Not any of those things.

[Pablo]

Originally Posted by Spizz And you cut and paste, and quote selectively

No. I just try to address the point without getting lost in verbiage.

I'm not trying to prove any global point or quote any stats

But you did quote stats. That was why I asked you about quoting stats.

...my viewpoint is different from yours, for the moment anyway. In the meantime, life is good.

Yes. That was what I thought you were saying.

[Daxk]

Mr Spizz,
My Congratulations on being successful,I think you would have succeeded anywhere.
So a Hypothetical if I may, what circumstance would make you walk away from everything you own and have built up?
Your Home, your Business, your lifestyle?What price are you NOT prepared to pay?
I'm not attacking you, but I am interested in the answer,

The problem for me(and probably most on this forum) is not that you are Happy and enjoying SA, its that those who have lived and grown up there know that,basically, the Cape is 12 hours drive away from where most violent crime happens in SA, and because of that violent crime, a lot of SA skills and talents have "Southgrated" leaving a large skills hole in the busines hub of not just SA but a large slice of sub-equatorial Africa.
And right now, if SA Home affairs got off their backsides, because of the Crunch in the rst of the World and because of WC2010,Gautrain and Eskom and Water Affairs shortly, there are jobs to be had.
And there are lots of Proffessionals looking at SA who dont know the difference between Cape and Gauteng.

Now forget about comparing other places in the world, would you like to compare living in Johannesburg/Pretoria/Gauteng with Van Rhynsdorp or Heramanus even the whole of the Western Cape?


And along comes your dear sweet wife who actually minimises, without thinking, the experiences of many on this forum.
I doubt either of you has bothered to read the Introductions section of this forum?

However, back to my question, what would make you climb on a Plane out of there?

[Spizz]

Originally Posted by Daxk And along comes your dear sweet wife who actually minimises, without thinking, the experiences of many on this forum. I doubt either of you has bothered to read the Introductions section of this forum?

I'm not sure how I've ended up the villain in here and I'm not sure why you have chosen the moral high ground and adopted the condescending tone, but I do know that you are way off the mark with your assumptions.

I'm also very interested to know why you think I wouldn't have read through the introductions? What are you telling me Daxk? 'My dear sweet wife'???? WTF are you talking about man? Are you the only guy qualified to speak on the situation? Should we post a story first about my sister in law getting raped on her farm near Kimberly before we are taken seriously by you? Please, what are you telling me? Fall into line and agree the country is doomed or I'm not welcome here?

Originally Posted by Daxk However, back to my question, what would make you climb on a Plane out of there?

I'm not too keen on closing the stable door after the horse has bolted, but I can't honestly say. My wife *is* home though, she is born and bred here, her family, every last one of them, 8 brothers and all,their wives, kids, cousins the whole bloody lot, are still here. There is not one of her family I can think of who are overseas. Some have gone and come back, but all are in SA at the moment.

But we discuss the situation and we talk about leaving on occasion, try somewhere else new and exciting, but she is not keen to leave, and I'm happy to hang around. However, I'm Scottish, and will return home one day. At the moment though, I'd like to see my eldest two through high school, that is my plan. Other than that, I can't honestly say.

[Tegwyn]

Spizz, you are not the villain here. I can't be bothered to repeat my deep connections once again. Whole lot of that info can be found on old threads. Just understand that my connections are current, frequent, and I am pretty clued up as to what is going on. My ties to SA run very deep. Comparing crime in Scotland to SA is a bit of a push, but no less traumatizing when it happens. Your odds of living through it in the UK are considerably better - not to mention the chances of the crim getting caught and prosecuted for his actions. I clearly understand the yob culture in the UK as well, and that too is one of many reasons why we don't live there either.

I do have to ask though, do you think police officers would dare do in Scotland what this African police officer has done? http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_i...4031171C486466 My family owns one of the biggest armed response companies in SA, and people turn to them, and the growing number of these companies because they can't trust/count on the police to actually do the job they are supposed to do.

[Pablo]

Originally Posted by Tegwyn I do have to ask though, do you think police officers would dare do in Scotland what this African police officer has done? http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_i...4031171C486466 My family owns one of the biggest armed response companies in SA, and people turn to them, and the growing number of these companies because they can't trust/count on the police to actually do the job they are supposed to do.

Thank you Tegwyn. This is a salutary reminder of the sheer inadequacy of the "there's crime everywhere" riff. I note too that these crimes, reported in today's newsfeed, were in middle-class areas of Cape Town, not some remote crime-pit.

[Daxk]

Mr Spizz, If my post comes across as either condescending or taking the moral high ground ,pleaseaccept my apologies.
I couched the tone of the post so as not to appear to be attacking you and your wife or the fact that you ae happy there and enjoying it.
did not want it to appear as if I was starting what you called a flame war.

I do not know your wife but in her other posts on this forum she comes across as being a sweet,kindly,friendly and helpful person.
I chose to accentuate that rather than attacking her.
I also gently tried to explain to you that if you read the introductions a lot of the posters on here have experienced traumatic incidents which have driven their choices to leave SA.
And a VERY common occurrence by posters is:
If you are careful you will be ok
Crime happens everywhere
Crime in Timbuctoo is worse than here
If your wifes post was inadvertant, fine, but she did post exactly what a lot of trolls have done over a period of time.
and people asked her about it.
So you bail in and immediately compare Burglaries, car theft and muggings in Australia to SA, when if you are as in touch with whats on in SA, you will note that those, including what you experienced in the UK are virtual Misdeamour level in SA.
And if you did experience those in SA, pop down to your local Police Station and see what sort ofreation you get to anything that does'nt have blood involved.
if your sister did get raped on a farm in Kimberley, do you think that was just an isolated excercise? that she was just "unlucky"?

so thats "WTF" Mr Spizz.
If my original post offended you, I apologise,
if this one does, tough.