Pabs, dude - calm down! It all comes down to that one word again - PERCEPTION!

Apart from where you said I accused you of lying, of course - that was just your excuse to get out of answering my salient points, which evidently - and here I quote - had you "cornered".

Auntie Doreen rings up from Randburg and, during a half hour conversation, says that her next door neighbour was mugged. She also mentions that her garden is growing well, despite the weather, that she had a lovely coffee morning with the WI, and that when she was down at the church doing some charity work last week where she saw Jenny - remember Jenny? - well, she's got two kids now - how time flies.
Anyway, to continue, she tells you that she can't wait for Danny to come up from Durbs, long drive, but there's a public holiday so it's a long weekend. His job is going better now he's got that new boss and they're putting new carpet in his office.

Sorry - Auntie Doreen does go on though, doesn't she?

Anyway - my point - which bits of the conversation get mentioned on here?

I wonder.

As someone who is invested in, and has family that owns armed response companies in South Africa, my sources are damned excellent. Not to mention employees most likely living in a secured neighbourhood near you. I'm back on average every 16 -18 months for business and family, and think that my personal observations offer a rather reasonable clarity. I also have good contacts in Toronto who are heading up some of the construction for the 2010 world cup. They too are pulling their hair out at the issues they have to contend with, and one of note is keeping staff, because of that very one issue - crime.

Just as the horrors and atrocities of the apartheid era needed people shouting from the rooftops, so does this particular issue under the ANC regime. Funny how history is repeating itself with the resistance to vocalizing problems the country faces. Nats tried to drown out the voices of protest and your ANC cronies are doing the same. It may not be at your doorstep and I personally hope it never does. That fact is, there are far too many "lotto" winners in this country alone that have pretty good reasons for having left a place they call home that contradict your argument. I won't even bother mentioning those that are still there. That resounding thread also seems to surface time and again with expats living in Canada and Australia. If crime was a lottery, the odds of a payoff are excellent.

Now back to Dave35's issue. Good luck and hopefully you do not get jerked around too much. Dealing with bureaucracy is a pain at best.

See what I mean? More sarcasm and sneering. Mocking reports of crime as the ramblings of dotty old fools.

I find it an absolute disgrace when all of us have had family/friends raped, murdered, hijacked, mugged, etc., over the years, to find someone sitting around making light of their experiences as though they're nothing and worse, we might be lying about them.

Yes, absolutely, Redlippie. And this is where he'll come in and say: I never said crime wasn't a problem.

He spends acres of print mocking and denigrating and questioning all reports of crime - whether from personal experience ("liars"), from experience of friends ("exaggerated gossip"), or from the media ("capitalist sensationalists"); he throws absurd gerrymandered statistics at you, or he gets all prim and tells you he's a "scientist", or he tells you it's all 'perception'.

And then, as if he's been misrepresented, he cries, 'But I never said crime wasn't a problem!'

It does make you wonder at the agenda of some people doesn't it? Something 6000 said caught my attention. He must know this person to determine this.

I'm closing this thread. You lot should be ashamed of yourself for taking this thread so off topic. It's not at all helpful to the OP. When someone asks a question can we please be more mindful of the topic at hand and not our own personal agendas.

Thank you

Sue