[Miss Eck]

Originally Posted by TouristTrap Oh, I know you're not. We recognize the stirrers

ah, that's alright then

[6000]

Ag Bless!
I got my own thread (sort of "own" anyway)!

Shit man, I'm so flattered.
I'd like to thank my mum, my dad, Mr Mbeki, Steve Biko, Leon Schuster, Schalk Burger, Jacob Zuma... etc etc.

And before anyone asks - no, I'm not a HCR person.
They're as way out as some of the posters on here - just at the other end of the spectrum.

[NTS]

Originally Posted by Pablo She was only going on holiday. I daresay her experiences were your usual typical holiday experiences of a few meals out, seeing sights etc. Why should she bother writing it up and saying she had a nice time? She's seen enough of your posts to know that you'll tear her apart. If I were her, I wouldn't bother either. Tourists from the West, with their superficial chequebook morality, don't really care two hoots about Africa. They didn't understand colonial Africa and didn't want to. Now they don't understand post-colonial Africa either,and don't want to. They just want to feel good, all warm and fuzzy inside, and occasionally send off a few quid to "make poverty history" and then just get on with their consumerist hedonism. SA as a holiday destination wasn't "cool". Now it is "cool" and so "cool" people can go there without feeling bad about themselves. The only thing that rattles them is that they might get mugged, murdered, raped, or bitten by some nasty African insect. Well let 'em get bitten. A bit of reality will do them good. Pablo

You are absolutely correct but 2 things. 1 there is nothing wrong with visiting a place and enjoying it on face value. We all do it to a certain extent.

Secondly the people who dont "care about africa" also dont really care too much about the politics of their own country either. In England no-one really cares which party gets in -your life doesnt change, but in Africa the politics makes a huge difference, so its understandable that you guys "care" far more than the average person from the US or UK. Plus politics is way more interesting here (Probably not a good sign actually!)

[6000]

Originally Posted by NTS You are absolutely correct but 2 things. 1 there is nothing wrong with visiting a place and enjoying it on face value. We all do it to a certain extent. Secondly the people who dont "care about africa" also dont really care too much about the politics of their own country either. In England no-one really cares which party gets in -your life doesnt change, but in Africa the politics makes a huge difference, so its understandable that you guys "care" far more than the average person from the US or UK. Plus politics is way more interesting here (Probably not a good sign actually!)

Some good points.

And the politics is "way more interesting here" because it's a country which is still changing and developing. It's in Africa - it actually isn't a European country, despite what many think!

[Pablo]

Originally Posted by NTS The people who dont "care about africa" also dont really care too much about the politics of their own country either. In England no-one really cares which party gets in -your life doesnt change, but in Africa the politics makes a huge difference, so its understandable that you guys "care" far more than the average person from the US or UK. Plus politics is way more interesting here (Probably not a good sign actually!)

People in the West are becoming increasingly infantilized. When they describe themselves as unpolitical, as I hear all too often, it is not that they are unpolitical at all, it is that their political responses are unschooled, ignorant, childish, derivative - but just look at their vitriolic response when their unthoughtout opinions are challenged. Passion replaces reason. Emoting repaces analysis. There is far too much fatuous "caring" and anyone who does not subscribe to the scramble towards chequebook morality is accused in screaming intemperate tones of not "caring". Look at the vulgar Nuremburg Rally emotionfest of Diana's funeral, or the gormless emotionalism of Make Poverty History. Those who remain ignorant of history are condemned to repeat it.

Pablo

[TouristTrap]

Originally Posted by Pablo People in the West are becoming increasingly infantilized. When they describe themselves as unpolitical, as I hear all too often, it is not that they are unpolitical at all, it is that their political responses are unschooled, ignorant, childish, derivative - but just look at their vitriolic response when their unthoughtout opinions are challenged. Passion replaces reason. Emoting repaces analysis. There is far too much fatuous "caring" and anyone who does not subscribe to the scramble towards chequebook morality is accused in screaming intemperate tones of not "caring". Look at the vulgar Nuremburg Rally emotionfest of Diana's funeral, or the gormless emotionalism of Make Poverty History. Those who remain ignorant of history are condemned to repeat it. Pablo

APPLAUSE.

[TouristTrap]

Distinct lack of backbone, I'd say.

[6000]

Originally Posted by Pablo People in the West are becoming increasingly infantilized. When they describe themselves as unpolitical, as I hear all too often, it is not that they are unpolitical at all, it is that their political responses are unschooled, ignorant, childish, derivative - but just look at their vitriolic response when their unthoughtout opinions are challenged. Passion replaces reason. Emoting repaces analysis. There is far too much fatuous "caring" and anyone who does not subscribe to the scramble towards chequebook morality is accused in screaming intemperate tones of not "caring". Look at the vulgar Nuremburg Rally emotionfest of Diana's funeral, or the gormless emotionalism of Make Poverty History. Those who remain ignorant of history are condemned to repeat it. Pablo

You're so right in much of what you say.
But the responses are "unschooled, ignorant, childish, derivative" because life is comfortable for them. They don't NEED activism. So different here.

[Pablo]

Originally Posted by 6000 You're so right in much of what you say. But the responses are "unschooled, ignorant, childish, derivative" because life is comfortable for them. They don't NEED activism. So different here.

My plea, such as it is, is not for "activism" (whatever that is) but for thought and learning. There are far too many ignorant interventions.

But you are right about Westerners' lives being comfortable. Funny thing is, for all their bloated comfort, they do not seem at all happy. Which makes me think that choking your life with needless luxury is not the path to happiness.

Pablo

[NTS]

Originally Posted by Pablo People in the West are becoming increasingly infantilized. When they describe themselves as unpolitical, as I hear all too often, it is not that they are unpolitical at all, it is that their political responses are unschooled, ignorant, childish, derivative - but just look at their vitriolic response when their unthoughtout opinions are challenged. Passion replaces reason. Emoting repaces analysis. There is far too much fatuous "caring" and anyone who does not subscribe to the scramble towards chequebook morality is accused in screaming intemperate tones of not "caring". Look at the vulgar Nuremburg Rally emotionfest of Diana's funeral, or the gormless emotionalism of Make Poverty History. Those who remain ignorant of history are condemned to repeat it. Pablo

I quite agree. This is especially true in my generation (I am 30... there I said it) in Europe who have not had hardship in my generation. I have never witnessed a world war, real economic downturns, serious industrial unrest. So where does my generation turn for its problems? After all, everyone needs problems.

It is a bit different for in South Africa. There has been major social change in the lifetime of 30 year olds, and I think these "geniuine" social problems make people think and become more mature for it.

My South African friends and colleagues have far more social / political awareness than my UK friends.

[NTS]

Originally Posted by Pablo My plea, such as it is, is not for "activism" (whatever that is) but for thought and learning. There are far too many ignorant interventions. But you are right about Westerners' lives being comfortable. Funny thing is, for all their bloated comfort, they do not seem at all happy. Which makes me think that choking your life with needless luxury is not the path to happiness. Pablo

To illustrate your point (and my point that mindless toursim can lead to awareness as well) when we first got here we did one of those tours of Soweto. At one point we all got out and looked around someones tin house. It was obviously staged. But the thing that really amazed me was the children. They were obviously so poor with scruffy clothes but they were laughing and smiling and seemed so happy. (this bit cannot have been staged) This is such a contrast to the Kids in UK, who seem so miserable depsite all the Pizza's & playstations and material things.

[TouristTrap]

Originally Posted by NTS To illustrate your point (and my point that mindless toursim can lead to awareness as well) when we first got here we did one of those tours of Soweto. At one point we all got out and looked around someones tin house. It was obviously staged. But the thing that really amazed me was the children. They were obviously so poor with scruffy clothes but they were laughing and smiling and seemed so happy. (this bit cannot have been staged) This is such a contrast to the Kids in UK, who seem so miserable depsite all the Pizza's & playstations and material things.

Kids in Southern Africa of all hues have always been able to entertain themselves without the need for 'things'

[NTS]

Originally Posted by TouristTrap Kids in Southern Africa of all hues have always been able to entertain themselves without the need for 'things'

But they make up for it as adults. I amazed at the material attitude here amongst the adults. I am truly shocked by the regulation Mercedes & prada sunglasses. financed by massive debt. Then you can see the new money doing the same.

[TouristTrap]

Originally Posted by NTS But they make up for it as adults. I amazed at the material attitude here amongst the adults. I am truly shocked by the regulation Mercedes & prada sunglasses. financed by massive debt. Then you can see the new money doing the same.

True. It is something that all us S.A. expats usually comment on among ourselves.

'What car do you drive?'
'Where do you live?'

Sets the tone for most friendships over there.

People aren't accepted for themselves, but for where they live, what they own. You don't find a mix of people at parties, i.e. like-seeks-like? They are always surprised when they come over on holiday and we'll have a woman who cleans homes for a living, sitting drinking next to the local mayor at our do's

[hatfield1]

Sorry to say that’s the case all over the world these days. That’s the way one judge’s success. He who dies with the most toys wins. If your kid doesn’t have fancy name brand clothes then you’re a bad parent, if your wife doesn’t have a huge rock on her finger then you’re a bad husband and if you don’t drive a BMW then you’re poor.
Man I can’t wait to show of my new iphone to the looses at work they will be so jealous.