Following up to Richard

    >> And they still tailgate, never indicate and haven't a clue about
    >> roundabouts.
    >That's universal, I think. Is there any country whose drivers diligently use
    >their turn signals?

I think the vast majority do in UK, you notice the odd one who
doesn't.
--
Mike Reid
If god wanted us to be vegetarians he wouldn't have made animals out of meat.
Wasdale-Lake district-Thames path-London "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Eat-walk-Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

Following up to Bill Moore

    >>> Its however possible that the UKs superior road safety record to
    >>> US is partly down to a tougher test of competence.
    >I thought it was related to those roundabouts, where incompetent
    >drivers are doomed to live out their lives circling ;-)

I never quite get the US problem with roundabouts. Why are they
considered difficult?
--
Mike Reid
If god wanted us to be vegetarians he wouldn't have made animals out of meat.
Wasdale-Lake district-Thames path-London "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Eat-walk-Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:49:49 +0100, The Reids
<dontuse@fell-walker.co.uk> wrote:

    >Following up to Richard
    >>> And they still tailgate, never indicate and haven't a clue about
    >>> roundabouts.
    >>That's universal, I think. Is there any country whose drivers diligently use
    >>their turn signals?
    >I think the vast majority do in UK, you notice the odd one who
    >doesn't.

I notice very many who don't.

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:49:50 +0100, The Reids
<dontuse@fell-walker.co.uk> wrote:

    >Following up to Bill Moore
    >>>> Its however possible that the UKs superior road safety record to
    >>>> US is partly down to a tougher test of competence.
    >>I thought it was related to those roundabouts, where incompetent
    >>drivers are doomed to live out their lives circling ;-)
    >I never quite get the US problem with roundabouts. Why are they
    >considered difficult?

have you visited the telephone dial roundabouts in Hemel Hempstead or
Swindon?
Have you driven around the inner ring road in Sheffield - and
survived?

The Reids wrote:
    > Following up to Bill Moore

    >>>>Its however possible that the UKs superior road safety record to
    >>>>US is partly down to a tougher test of competence.

    >>I thought it was related to those roundabouts, where incompetent
    >>drivers are doomed to live out their lives circling ;-)

    > I never quite get the US problem with roundabouts. Why are they
    > considered difficult?

The issue is "as usual with driving" a question of right of way. Most
US drivers do not have enough exposure to roundabouts to understand the
right or way situation.

The Reids <dontuse@fell-walker.co.uk> wrote in message news:<dj36i01pd99j5uao88c5kl1or0j6o6vh8q@4ax.com>. ..

    > Its however possible that the UKs superior road safety record to
    > US is partly down to a tougher test of competence.

http://www.factbook.net/EGRF_Regional_analyses_HMCs.htm

There are too many variables to draw such a conclusion. Look at the
difference between pedestrian fatalities in the two countries (much
higher in Britain and Japan than anywhere else). And why should Canada
have so much better a record than the USA?

On 19 Aug 2004 10:37:00 -0700, sufaud@hotmail.com (Sufaud) wrote:

    >The Reids <dontuse@fell-walker.co.uk> wrote in message news:<dj36i01pd99j5uao88c5kl1or0j6o6vh8q@4ax.com>. ..
    >> Its however possible that the UKs superior road safety record to
    >> US is partly down to a tougher test of competence.
    >http://www.factbook.net/EGRF_Regional_analyses_HMCs.htm
    >There are too many variables to draw such a conclusion. Look at the
    >difference between pedestrian fatalities in the two countries (much
    >higher in Britain and Japan than anywhere else). And why should Canada
    >have so much better a record than the USA?

Everybody has left?

The Reids <dontuse@fell-walker.co.uk> wrote in message news:<9ps8i09c257fm8kt6pen4862tgve5upe55@4ax.com>. ..
    > Following up to Bill Moore
    >
    > >>> Its however possible that the UKs superior road safety record to
    > >>> US is partly down to a tougher test of competence.
    > >
    > >
    > >I thought it was related to those roundabouts, where incompetent
    > >drivers are doomed to live out their lives circling ;-)
    >
    > I never quite get the US problem with roundabouts. Why are they
    > considered difficult?

Lack of experience predominately.

It's a bit like contract bridge, the basic rules are simple,
but the game is a bit more complicated in practice. There seem
to be a ton of conventions about entering and exiting. Here
in the states, folks seem to want/need/prefer/expect a fairly
large amount of space before being willing to enter into moving
traffic. In your standard roundabout, there often will never
be that much space. So, in short order, they often have to
enter into a space they'd rather not, then potentially change
lanes requiring space which is smaller than they would prefer.

I kinda like 'em personally, although I have to admit, some
of the larger ones can throw things at ya a bit faster than
your standard issue tourist is set to handle. It's alot of
lane changing in short order so ya better know where ya wanna
go.

Following up to nitram@privacy.net

    >>I never quite get the US problem with roundabouts. Why are they
    >>considered difficult?
    >have you visited the telephone dial roundabouts in Hemel Hempstead or
    >Swindon?

Yes, I understand they are supposed to be good for traffic flow,
less good for understandability. Luckily no US tourist is likely
to visit either?

    >Have you driven around the inner ring road in Sheffield - and
    >survived?

No, I didn't survive. What's its problem?
--
Mike Reid
If god wanted us to be vegetarians he wouldn't have made animals out of meat.
Wasdale-Lake district-Thames path-London "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Eat-walk-Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

Following up to Sufaud

    > Its however possible that the UKs superior road safety record to
    > US is partly down to a tougher test of competence.

    >http://www.factbook.net/EGRF_Regional_analyses_HMCs.htm
    >There are too many variables to draw such a conclusion.

That's why I said "possible" and "partly"!

    >Look at the difference between pedestrian fatalities in the two countries (much
    >higher in Britain and Japan than anywhere else). And why should Canada
    >have so much better a record than the USA?

Not higher, a higher % of the total for the country. US car 52%
walk 13% UK car 50% walk 27%
Total deaths per 100,000 in US 15.8 and 6.1 in UK (the highest
and the lowest)

So that's pedestrian deaths of 2.0 per 100,000 in US
1.6 per 100,000 in UK.

So if I got the arithmetic right (unlikely) pedestrian fatalities
are also lower in UK.

One obvious question is what were the remaining 30% doing,
sleeping in the road?
I was also surprised to read "30% of households don't own a car
in UK" which seems incredibly high, I only know three households
who do not own a car, two very old people and one single man
living in centre of London. Most own two!
--
Mike Reid
If god wanted us to be vegetarians he wouldn't have made animals out of meat.
Wasdale-Lake district-Thames path-London "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Eat-walk-Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:07:55 +0100, The Reids
<dontuse@fell-walker.co.uk> wrote:

    >Following up to nitram@privacy.net
    >>>I never quite get the US problem with roundabouts. Why are they
    >>>considered difficult?
    >>have you visited the telephone dial roundabouts in Hemel Hempstead or
    >>Swindon?
    >Yes, I understand they are supposed to be good for traffic flow,
    >less good for understandability. Luckily no US tourist is likely
    >to visit either?

but plenty of American business people do. Swindon - UK home of Intel.

    >>Have you driven around the inner ring road in Sheffield - and
    >>survived?
    >No, I didn't survive.

    :-)

    >What's its problem?

Mainly the phasing of the traffic lights at each roundabout. The
upstream lights go green too soon.

Following up to nitram@privacy.net

    >but plenty of American business people do. Swindon - UK home of Intel.

Ah, the Swindon branch of The Office.
Good move then, confuse them on the roads and get a better deal
    :-)

    >>>Have you driven around the inner ring road in Sheffield - and
    >>>survived?

    >>What's its problem?
    >Mainly the phasing of the traffic lights at each roundabout. The
    >upstream lights go green too soon.

It always seems a failure when you have lights on a roundabout!
--
Mike Reid
If god wanted us to be vegetarians he wouldn't have made animals out of meat.
Wasdale-Lake district-Thames path-London "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Eat-walk-Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:43:53 +0100, The Reids
<dontuse@fell-walker.co.uk> wrote:

    >Following up to nitram@privacy.net
    >>but plenty of American business people do. Swindon - UK home of Intel.
    >Ah, the Swindon branch of The Office.
    >Good move then, confuse them on the roads and get a better deal
    >:-)
    >>>>Have you driven around the inner ring road in Sheffield - and
    >>>>survived?
    >>>What's its problem?
    >>Mainly the phasing of the traffic lights at each roundabout. The
    >>upstream lights go green too soon.
    >It always seems a failure when you have lights on a roundabout!

Roundabouts don't work if there is a continuous stream of traffic
upstream. For this reason traffic lights are used.
Somebody having installed traffic lights to solve the problem, you
don't expect the upstream light to go green and allow the upstream to
saturate the roundabout just before your traffic light goes green. It
always does this in Sheffield. It would be safer if they were to
remove the lights or program them properly.

"The Reids" <dontuse@fell-walker.co.uk> wrote in message
news:a19bi0h7024ccoisn57biu6q9b9j7at6t5@4ax.com...
    > Following up to nitram@privacy.net
    > >>I never quite get the US problem with roundabouts. Why are they
    > >>considered difficult?
    > >
    > >have you visited the telephone dial roundabouts in Hemel Hempstead or
    > >Swindon?
    > Yes, I understand they are supposed to be good for traffic flow,
    > less good for understandability. Luckily no US tourist is likely
    > to visit either?

But they might get to encounter the monster outside Hatton Cross
station at Heathrow.

tim