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South Africa – would we be silly ?

South Africa – would we be silly ?

Old Jun 22nd 2010, 8:32 pm
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Default South Africa – would we be silly ?

New to this forum, so hello from me.

Quick intro:
We are based in Scotland and currently considering a move (job offer) to South Africa which could be Durban or Cape Town based.

We are quite concerned about the crime in South Africa as we have a seven year old boy. There is also the concern of the racial tension in SA as well as the BEE issues.

We have met a lot of South Africans that have left SA and the main reason they expressed – crime.

Crime here in the UK is rather scary in parts and drugs and alcohol seem to be the main interest for the youth. Have been over to South Africa years ago and met the most incredible people with energy and colour that by contrast to the UK is a big attraction. Of course, the weather.

Are we being stupid to even consider South Africa?

We hear stories of people living behind electric fences and scared to stop at traffic lights and not sure if that is just in certain areas or is that a general way of life in South Africa ?

Any input appreciated.
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Old Jun 23rd 2010, 12:13 pm
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Default Re: South Africa – would we be silly ?

Originally Posted by ToDo
New to this forum, so hello from me.

Quick intro:
We are based in Scotland and currently considering a move (job offer) to South Africa which could be Durban or Cape Town based.

We are quite concerned about the crime in South Africa as we have a seven year old boy. There is also the concern of the racial tension in SA as well as the BEE issues.

We have met a lot of South Africans that have left SA and the main reason they expressed – crime.

Crime here in the UK is rather scary in parts and drugs and alcohol seem to be the main interest for the youth. Have been over to South Africa years ago and met the most incredible people with energy and colour that by contrast to the UK is a big attraction. Of course, the weather.

Are we being stupid to even consider South Africa?

We hear stories of people living behind electric fences and scared to stop at traffic lights and not sure if that is just in certain areas or is that a general way of life in South Africa ?

Any input appreciated.
I moved to SA 14 months ago but to Jo'burg. I would say that, if the job offer is good BEE should not be a problem. I would be wary of moving if you have not visited your destination recently unless your employer is fixing up acaccommodation, car, School etc Otherwise check out property web sites to get a feel - it's not all walls and razor wire especially Cape Town. I live on a safe walled complex as couldn't live with wall around my home. I'm sure that school is a factor and the schools here are brilliant and children well mannered (even teenagers) It is a wonderful country with wonderful happy people though you are right about the crime. You just need to be careful and to an extent lucky. Beats depressed UK any day!!!

Ray
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Old Jun 23rd 2010, 1:37 pm
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Default Re: South Africa – would we be silly ?

Thanks Ray,

The BEE consideration is more regarding my wife as she would be looking to do something, perhaps start her own business.

The job offer – to be more precise, I have been head-hunted and really at the start of the negotiations so there is lots to think about.

I understand that we would have to be looking at a private school for our son – do you have any idea of the costs involved or is that a vast range depending?

Had a look at property web sites and Cape Town seems to be a lot more expensive compared to Durban (or Johannesburg). Is that because it is safer?

When you say we should be wary, could you expand on that please?

Having a look at the news websites for South Africa the crime does seem to be a huge problem and of course a lot of the comments here (this forum) are that it is out of control.

In the ideal world we could take a couple of months off and do a look-see but at the negotiations stage it is better to nut out what offer will be on the table prior to making any decisions like a look-see. It is rather difficult as there are such conflicting messages.

I must also say that your comment regarding luck re crime is somewhat of a concern. Regardless of the job, the weather, money etc we do not want to be in the position that we are worried sick about our son’s safety and if his was having an unlucky day. That kind of stress would just make the whole idea a no go.

Thanks again for your response and would appreciate any further input you can offer.
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Old Jun 24th 2010, 3:56 am
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Default Re: South Africa – would we be silly ?

Hi ToDo and welcome. I really do believe you need to do far more research than just here on this BE site. I personally think in terms of quality of life, the Cape would probably have more to offer, and in terms of crime and security, probably a safer bet. Please read past threads and you will get an idea of the what you need to consider. I am familiar with Scotland (hubs from Kilmarnock and me originally from Wales) so aware of lifestyle and quality of life in general.

Lifestyle in SA has the bonus of great weather and a beautiful environment. Security in terms of home protection is paramount and that should absolutely be a prime consideration in where you choose to settle and what security is offered in that area. Gated communities can be a good start when getting adjusted to a new environment. Schooling of course another and a private school really is the only way to go for quality education anymore. It IS expensive so be prepared for that. Firstly find out the areas that your job would require you to reside and begin researching that area for proximity of available private schools. They should be able to offer you their rates.

Commute time is also important and that does mean either you or your wife will be taxi service for quite some time. Public transport is not nearly as efficient - or for that matter as safe as the British service so more than one vehicle would be necessary. Personal safety is another factor and I am sure you have heard plenty about crime issues. Crimes of opportunity are obviously more frequent in any country with a high unemployment rate and SA is no different in those terms. What is different is that law enforcement has deteriorated quite substantially. I personally encourage all adults to give SA a try if they are that motivated and mature enough to assess the risks, but when it comes to children, it is a concern as they will have to learn to deal with the security issues that are now a standard living practice. It may cause a restrictive environment for them if they were used to more freedom at home.

It is a big decision and I think you need far more feedback from the recruiter to get a more detailed idea of where you are be located. I also strongly recommend a trip to SA and see first hand what you should expect. Whatever your gut instinct tells you will be a good signal to adhere to.

I personally will not recommend going with children but that is because I have had so many loved ones there that have had some awful experiences therefore my opinions are biased. I wish you luck with your decision.
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Old Jun 24th 2010, 6:31 am
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Default Re: South Africa – would we be silly ?

Originally Posted by ToDo
Thanks Ray,

The BEE consideration is more regarding my wife as she would be looking to do something, perhaps start her own business.

NO PROBLEM IF OWN BUSINESS

The job offer – to be more precise, I have been head-hunted and really at the start of the negotiations so there is lots to think about.

UPPER HAND BY SOUND OF IT. MAKE SURE PACKAGE COVERS EVERYTHING INCLUDING SCHOOL TRY TO HAVE OFF-SHORE CONTRACT (ALLOWED FOR 5 YEARS IN SA)

I understand that we would have to be looking at a private school for our son – do you have any idea of the costs involved or is that a vast range depending?

AT 57 NO IDEA!!! BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF EXCELLENT ONES

Had a look at property web sites and Cape Town seems to be a lot more expensive compared to Durban (or Johannesburg). Is that because it is safer?

CT IS POORER PAY THAN JO'BURG. I THINK TOURISM & BRITS + OTHER EU 50 / 50 UK AND SA INCREASE DEMAND AND PRICES

When you say we should be wary, could you expand on that please?

YOU HAVE TO BE ALERT ALL TIME AS OPPORTUNIST CRIME

Having a look at the news websites for South Africa the crime does seem to be a huge problem and of course a lot of the comments here (this forum) are that it is out of control.

IF YOU NOT HERE YOU DON'T REALLY KNOW. BAD NEWS SELLS!!!

I must also say that your comment regarding luck re crime is somewhat of a concern. Regardless of the job, the weather, money etc we do not want to be in the position that we are worried sick about our son’s safety and if his was having

JUST A CASE OF WRONG PLACE, WRONG TIME. CAN OFFER LITTLE MORE
SEE COMMENTS IN QUOTE
REGARDS
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Old Jun 24th 2010, 12:26 pm
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Default Re: South Africa – would we be silly ?

Hi ToDo, welcome to the Africa forum.

Tegwyn's advice / information is spot on. Couldn't have said it better. Feel free to ask any specific questions about prices and we'll do our best to provide feedback.

A good school in Joburg is in the region of R4000 pm, depending on age and obviously which school.

All the best, and good luck.

Ed
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Old Jun 25th 2010, 9:29 am
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Default Re: South Africa – would we be silly ?

Originally Posted by rayexUkinSA
SEE COMMENTS IN QUOTE
REGARDS
Thanks for your input Ray,

From the limited amount of research we have done - we were informed that BEE would affect my wife if she was in business. From what we understand is that there are BEE compliances that would have to be in place should she wish to do business with certain companies that in-turn have to comply with BEE code.

The compliance as we understand is that that she would have to employ BEE staff and at some stage have a black partner / director of the company.

I though the UK was full of bureaucracy – crickey

It is all stressful as we would like to just get on a plane and spend a month seeing it all for ourselves and asking the questions, but in the real world

Thanks again for your input

Enjoy the WC
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Old Jun 25th 2010, 10:01 am
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Default Re: South Africa – would we be silly ?

Originally Posted by Tegwyn
Hi ToDo and welcome. I really do believe you need to do far more research than just here on this BE site. I personally think in terms of quality of life, the Cape would probably have more to offer, and in terms of crime and security, probably a safer bet. Please read past threads and you will get an idea of the what you need to consider. I am familiar with Scotland (hubs from Kilmarnock and me originally from Wales) so aware of lifestyle and quality of life in general.

Lifestyle in SA has the bonus of great weather and a beautiful environment. Security in terms of home protection is paramount and that should absolutely be a prime consideration in where you choose to settle and what security is offered in that area. Gated communities can be a good start when getting adjusted to a new environment. Schooling of course another and a private school really is the only way to go for quality education anymore. It IS expensive so be prepared for that. Firstly find out the areas that your job would require you to reside and begin researching that area for proximity of available private schools. They should be able to offer you their rates.

Commute time is also important and that does mean either you or your wife will be taxi service for quite some time. Public transport is not nearly as efficient - or for that matter as safe as the British service so more than one vehicle would be necessary. Personal safety is another factor and I am sure you have heard plenty about crime issues. Crimes of opportunity are obviously more frequent in any country with a high unemployment rate and SA is no different in those terms. What is different is that law enforcement has deteriorated quite substantially. I personally encourage all adults to give SA a try if they are that motivated and mature enough to assess the risks, but when it comes to children, it is a concern as they will have to learn to deal with the security issues that are now a standard living practice. It may cause a restrictive environment for them if they were used to more freedom at home.

It is a big decision and I think you need far more feedback from the recruiter to get a more detailed idea of where you are be located. I also strongly recommend a trip to SA and see first hand what you should expect. Whatever your gut instinct tells you will be a good signal to adhere to.

I personally will not recommend going with children but that is because I have had so many loved ones there that have had some awful experiences therefore my opinions are biased. I wish you luck with your decision.



Thanks for your great response.

At this stage our biggest concern is the security aspect and obviously we are very aware that our wee lad is used to having freedom, he cycles to school and back every day.

We live in a wee village and whilst that can get to you it also offers a very strong community spirit and of course there is the safety aspect of everyone knowing everyone as we feel relatively relaxed about our son’s environment in that regard.

Sadly the whole world is full of weirdoes and druggies that seem to have more rights than good family citizens trying to do their best and live a good life. I think if we were living in Glasgow or one of the other cities we would probably have moved before now but we are very aware that it is a huge move and there is lots to consider.

If it were Spain or Germany we were considering we wouldn’t be so cautious for the obvious reasons and also a lot easier for us to scope-out with our feet on the soil.

Right now, at the top of the list is the security aspect of SA and we are considering this not just as the potential of us becoming a victim but also the result if our wee lad had to see something bad happen or be exposed to a shopping mall shoot-out. Also the impact of living in an environment where the possibility of these things happening being very real and obviously our child growing up with an awareness of such potential happenings having an impact on his emotions.

We believe that you can never underestimate the intelligence and instincts of little people and I seriously wonder what it would say to our son pulling up to the shops where armed guards patrol the car park.

Obviously these are mostly the negative views of South Africa and we are attracted to the sunshine and vibrant side of the country.

Thanks again
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Old Jun 25th 2010, 10:10 am
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Default Re: South Africa – would we be silly ?

I"m SA born, lived and loved living in the UK, only came back cause of OH, live in the Cape and have own business.
Short version.
Cape Town northern suburbs beautiful and safe, Somerset West 55km from CT superb, gated houses anything from 1.5m to 25m Rands - safe. Living costs expensive - need about 30 to 40KR after tax to live comfortably. Schools pblic and private generally very good, especially in suburbs.
Safety is being aware at all times and dont go anywhere stupid, especially at nite. Restaurants good to very good.
i have my own business, simple to set up and oprate - Bee only comes in at more than 50 - 100 employees and if you want to deal with BEE companies - your wife starting out will have no trouble there.
Keep your options open to return quickly if neccessary, rent, as opposed to buy your house if shortish term stay, Cape Town is very viable.
Johannesburg is more lucrative but more prone to safety issues, massive developments and expansion. Live and work in the upper class suburbs and you should be ok, but I wouldnt.
Durban hot and humid and lots of cockroaches - but the folk are very old colonial, curries to die for.
I'd move to Matfield/Tenterden in Kent, work in London and spend my spare time enjoying Europe. Nuff said.
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Old Jun 25th 2010, 10:14 am
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Default Re: South Africa – would we be silly ?

Originally Posted by ededed
Hi ToDo, welcome to the Africa forum.

Tegwyn's advice / information is spot on. Couldn't have said it better. Feel free to ask any specific questions about prices and we'll do our best to provide feedback.

A good school in Joburg is in the region of R4000 pm, depending on age and obviously which school.

All the best, and good luck.

Ed
Thanks for your response.

Ouch - £400 a month for school fees.

Maybe we should stay here and hope to get our wee lad into St Andrews

We are starting to see a picture forming that shows a relatively high cost of living in SA.

Private schooling
Security
Lack of public transport – two cars needed
We were reading an earlier post re the cost of grocery shopping – seems high priced.
White appliances and electronics seem to be very expensive also
Car and household insurance seems to be very expensive


Taking all these (and we have no doubt missed a few) into consideration, if my offer was not a package that included housing, school and car for wife etc – what would I need to be earning to have the same standard of life that we have now (obviously with sunshine)?

Thanks again mate.
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Old Jun 25th 2010, 12:54 pm
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Default Re: South Africa – would we be silly ?

Start with house rent R15000pm, food for 4 about R5000pm, 2 cars excluding deposits R1500/R100000, insurances about R400/R100000, house insurance R500 - R1000, medical aid About R3-6000per month, etc. Generally if your rent is about a quarter of take home, R60000 and more, I heard a proffessor at uni knocks KR50 - 60pm, If you come to the Cape a government school is very acceptable at R1500 (about) a month - check Rondebosch Boys/Bishops websites.
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Old Jun 25th 2010, 12:56 pm
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Default Re: South Africa – would we be silly ?

Seriously - I advise DON"T make this decision based on your adult situation, make it on the long term prospects for your children, ask yourself what their future prospects will be if you/they stay.
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Old Jun 25th 2010, 1:14 pm
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Default Re: South Africa – would we be silly ?

Originally Posted by woocus
Start with house rent R15000pm, food for 4 about R5000pm, 2 cars excluding deposits R1500/R100000, insurances about R400/R100000, house insurance R500 - R1000, medical aid About R3-6000per month, etc. Generally if your rent is about a quarter of take home, R60000 and more, I heard a proffessor at uni knocks KR50 - 60pm, If you come to the Cape a government school is very acceptable at R1500 (about) a month - check Rondebosch Boys/Bishops websites.
Thanks Woocus,

At a plus / minus call it R30 k a month, cost of living - that is not cheap

That is looking more like London COL

In Scotland you can rent a decent house (4 beds) for under £1000 p/m

Maybe we are looking in the wrong direction, could be we should look at Shetlands and get away from the rat-race and just have to wear a jersey and put up with the horizontal rain

Seriously
What would be the bonus of South Africa then outside the weather.

Thanks again
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Old Jun 25th 2010, 2:36 pm
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Default Re: South Africa – would we be silly ?

Originally Posted by ToDo
Thanks Woocus,

At a plus / minus call it R30 k a month, cost of living - that is not cheap

That is looking more like London COL

In Scotland you can rent a decent house (4 beds) for under £1000 p/m

Maybe we are looking in the wrong direction, could be we should look at Shetlands and get away from the rat-race and just have to wear a jersey and put up with the horizontal rain

Seriously
What would be the bonus of South Africa then outside the weather.

Thanks again

We went back over Easter for three weeks. Couldn't believe how pricey the place is now. Not knocking it, but feel you would need to earn really good money there to make it worthwhile.

Check out some prices here:-

http://britishexpats.com/forum/showp...1&postcount=18

Last edited by Alfresco; Jun 25th 2010 at 2:41 pm.
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Old Jun 25th 2010, 8:38 pm
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Default Re: South Africa – would we be silly ?

Forgot to mention health care. It costs a bomb, that is if your employer does not offer it, and it will be for most private hospitals for the better health care. General hospitals would be one the last places I would frequent anymore.

On the whole, a good income is necessary for quality of life. However, the kind of freedoms you take for granted in Scotland would be curtailed. I am not saying you can't enjoy much of what SA has to offer. It will be different and you will need to be far more aware of your environment than you have become accustomed to in Scotland. If it is a short term adventure and the package is right, might be what you would want to venture into. Long term is something I would not recommend. South Africa is changing rapidly and at the moment not exactly for the better. This may turn around but doubtfully in my lifetime - or yours.
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