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Taboo-subjects in NZ?

Taboo-subjects in NZ?

Old Apr 18th 2009, 8:11 am
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Default Re: Taboo-subjects in NZ?

Originally Posted by MrCFD
I think that there is some confusion on this thread as to what history actually means.

History is a study of the past with particular reference to written/visible records and evidence. A number of the posts on here are referring to culture and mythology rather than history. The Maori did not have any written records of their arrival in NZ, and the verbal records are limited at best.

I agree that it may be somewhat arrogant to discount their culture and beliefs, but referring solely to their history as a record of past events (the way in which the term has been used since the 15th century), then their history is indeed limited. They existed before the Europeans arrived, but visible historical evidence is very much lacking relative to European cultures. There is no denying that fact, just as there is no denying the fact that there is more historical evidence of WW2 than there is of Pythagorus writing his theorem in the Sahara Desert for the Martians to see how intelligent we are.
Not somewhat arrogant, very arrogant in my view.

Oh ! so because Maori have a long oral culture it's not relevant.

What evidence do you have to say that verbal records are limited ?

The only limitation is that they are held sacred by whanau not basterdised by the pen of others.
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Old Apr 18th 2009, 11:03 am
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Default Re: Taboo-subjects in NZ?

Originally Posted by MrCFD
I think that there is some confusion on this thread as to what history actually means.

History is a study of the past with particular reference to written/visible records and evidence. A number of the posts on here are referring to culture and mythology rather than history. The Maori did not have any written records of their arrival in NZ, and the verbal records are limited at best.

I agree that it may be somewhat arrogant to discount their culture and beliefs, but referring solely to their history as a record of past events (the way in which the term has been used since the 15th century), then their history is indeed limited. They existed before the Europeans arrived, but visible historical evidence is very much lacking relative to European cultures. There is no denying that fact, just as there is no denying the fact that there is more historical evidence of WW2 than there is of Pythagorus writing his theorem in the Sahara Desert for the Martians to see how intelligent we are.
By your theory the Jews also have very limited history.
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Old Apr 18th 2009, 11:16 am
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Default Re: Taboo-subjects in NZ?

Originally Posted by MrCFD
I think that there is some confusion on this thread as to what history actually means.

History is a study of the past with particular reference to written/visible records and evidence. A number of the posts on here are referring to culture and mythology rather than history. The Maori did not have any written records of their arrival in NZ, and the verbal records are limited at best.
I must disagree with you. Evidence, yes, written documents, no. Oral history, myths and legened, artefacts and archeological findings are all historical evidence even though they are not written history. To suggest "written history" as we understand it within the Western European culture to be the definitive norm of history is once again "history" defined by conquerors. In many cultures, not just Maori, official history was recorded down in oral history or in legends, tales, art etc. What is the norm in our culture is not the universal norm. And written documents only go back a couple of thousand years, and are often themselves based on oral histories (Herodotus, Iliad etc.). Written history in Europe until 19th or early 20th century was also the priviledge of the upper classes who could rean and write: to dismiss the way the majority of people recorded their history (folklore, art, artefacts) is dismissing the history of the majority of people. And written history is also very political: various cultures, religions, rulers etc. have limited the use of writing and documents to best suit their purposes, not to record events for future generations.

I actually googled definitions of history, and whilst some of the dictionaries and other sources list written history as one of the subcategories of history, some don't mention the word written at all, such ashttp://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/history .

(And myths most certainly are history as well: they are the embodiment of our joint cultural history, and myths are not just false beliefs or interesting stories. They are the cultural code of humankind carrying historical information on the evolution of cultures and beliefs. I specialised in myths and myth theories and wrote my thesis on them -but will not continue on this subject as I could go on for years )
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Old Apr 18th 2009, 8:18 pm
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Default Re: Taboo-subjects in NZ?

Again there is a lot of confusion on here.

I have not said that Maori do not have history, I am saying that coming from Europe, it is relative, and it is difficult for you to 'see' the history in NZ when used to seeing the old thatched cottages, historical archives and stately buildings. Before the European arrival in NZ, there are only oral records and comparatively there is a lack of visible history.

This is not a racist, European view on history. I only use Europe as the example because that is where most of us come from! The Chinese have a rich and full history. Other places such as Thailand/Cambodia, Siam, Iraq/Mesopotamia, Mexico, the Americas, Israel/Palestine, Egypt, etc all have very colourful and visible histories.

I have not said that oral history is not a valid part of history. If you read my post, I have said that Maori oral history is limited at best - not invalid. I have also said that a major component of history is written and visible - again not invalidating oral history at all.

I am able to look at this issue from a kiwi perspective as I was born and raised in NZ. I know a LOT more about the history of this place than the average man on the street, but I have travelled all over the world and found that one thing that I miss coming back to NZ is visible, accessible history. NZ is clearly lacking in this respect.

Mgee, I have also done postgraduate work on cultures and history, and wrote my thesis based on historical debate. I agree with your post, but feel that you have missed the point of mine.
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Old Apr 18th 2009, 10:43 pm
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Default Re: Taboo-subjects in NZ?

I am able to look at this issue from a kiwi perspective as I was born and raised in NZ. I know a LOT more about the history of this place than the average man on the street, but I have travelled all over the world and found that one thing that I miss coming back to NZ is visible, accessible history. NZ is clearly lacking in this respect.

That is certainly not reflected in your posts, however if that is so then I am wondering exactly what your intent is and why you feel the need to hide your real knowledge.

Like you I have lived in a number of different countries and yes I really missed the physical aspects of history that I was surrounded by in England.

But to my mind NZ history is not just about buildings, it is about specific concepts and values e.g. mana, wairua, aroha etc:-

Aroha ki te tangata - Show respect

Titiro Whakarongo korero - Look, listen before you speak

Kanohi ki te kanohi - Present face to face

Manaaki tangata - Share, host, generosity

Kia tupato - Be cautious

Kaua e mahaki - Do not flaunt your knowledge

Kaua e takahia te mana o te tangata - Do not trample over the mana of people
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Old Apr 19th 2009, 5:44 am
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Default Re: Taboo-subjects in NZ?

Originally Posted by Bellasmum
I am able to look at this issue from a kiwi perspective as I was born and raised in NZ. I know a LOT more about the history of this place than the average man on the street, but I have travelled all over the world and found that one thing that I miss coming back to NZ is visible, accessible history. NZ is clearly lacking in this respect.

That is certainly not reflected in your posts, however if that is so then I am wondering exactly what your intent is and why you feel the need to hide your real knowledge.

Like you I have lived in a number of different countries and yes I really missed the physical aspects of history that I was surrounded by in England.

But to my mind NZ history is not just about buildings, it is about specific concepts and values e.g. mana, wairua, aroha etc:-

Aroha ki te tangata - Show respect

Titiro Whakarongo korero - Look, listen before you speak

Kanohi ki te kanohi - Present face to face

Manaaki tangata - Share, host, generosity

Kia tupato - Be cautious

Kaua e mahaki - Do not flaunt your knowledge

Kaua e takahia te mana o te tangata - Do not trample over the mana of people
Its hard to be very proud of any culture that never developed beyound the stone age and that was still canabalistic less than 200 years ago. Surely there is more to history than just existing over a long period.
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Old Apr 19th 2009, 10:35 am
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Default Re: Taboo-subjects in NZ?

Originally Posted by englishheaven
Its hard to be very proud of any culture that never developed beyound the stone age and that was still canabalistic less than 200 years ago. Surely there is more to history than just existing over a long period.
This is once again about making your own culture the universal norm. Stone age from whose perspective? And who defined non-cannibalism as the norm for all cultures? We cannot make our own cultural experience as the norm or the requirement for other cultures and ways of life. There are different factors, different circumstances, different climates that affect the way that a culture evolves.

For example, would you really expect the Inuit (=Eskimos) to have a similar culture as, let's say, the Italians? That they try to grow wine, build with stone? Of course not. Yet by your criteria, they still live in the ice age as they do not conform to the European culture(s). Their culture (beliefs, way of life, eating habits, their numerous words for different snow types etc. etc.) is a direct consequence of living in and adapting to the arctic conditions. Every culture is dependent of its own surroundings and thus the culture's beliefs and habits are directly influenced by it. In that sense we are just like any other animal species: we adapt to our environment and find ways to survive in it and, uniquely for the homo sapiens/religiosus, try to explain the conditions and phenomena surrounding us through belief systems and religions. It would have made very little sense for the Maori to develop an European style culture, belief system and habits as they never lived in Europe, nor does their culture have the same evolutionary history. Their culture (beliefs, habits, language etc.) adapted to the world they lived in and evolved accordingly, and thus they cannot be judged by our standards or through the history of our culture.

And when it comes to cannibalism: a Hindu acquaintance of mine was horrified about us Christians eating the body and and drinking the blood of our god -even symbolically. There are numerous things in Western European culture that horrify other cultures and contravene their norms, so we really are not in a position to judge anyone else's cultures, and even less in the position of raising our culture above the other cultures. Doing so is cultural imperialism/colonialism/racism that in the course of history has lead to the oppression and eradication of numerous indigenous cultures around the world.
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Old Apr 19th 2009, 1:43 pm
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Default Re: Taboo-subjects in NZ?

Originally Posted by Ash1
The kiwi`s wont tolerate any disrespect about the All Blacks. Where as us pomms accept that we aren`t going to win the football world cup because our team is crap but we support them anyway , the kiwi`s will not accept that they aren`t the world champions and every game they lose they were robbed !!!!! Roll on 2011. I`d love to see England beat them in the final.
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As an impartial observer (an Aussie) I think the All Blacks are way more talented than the English (and Australian) team. Even though they lose sometimes it is obvious they are a better side with more talented players.
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Old Apr 19th 2009, 1:46 pm
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Default Re: Taboo-subjects in NZ?

Originally Posted by englishheaven
I dont know why they are so obsessed with Gallipoli, there were more British there than ANZACS. I suppose that comes from having very little history to be proud of.
If Britain had to rely on the quality of that analysis there would be no British history....thank god there are smart British as well.
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Old Apr 19th 2009, 1:54 pm
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Default Re: Taboo-subjects in NZ?

Originally Posted by sr71
Bit of an arrogant thing to say.

Do you think NZ'ers were magically created out of thin air? The vast majority of them can lay claim to the same history as you can though their English/Scottish/Irish ancestors.

In any case if you don't understand the importance of things like ANZACs then you should perhaps educate yourself. Your statement is pretty much the equivalent of saying Remembrance Day in the UK means nothing.
Exactly. I often wonder whether some British immigrants are worried about that day when they live in NZ or Australia too long and their history just disappears - whoosh, gone, the generations of your family who lived in Britain no longer exist - you have no history because you now live somewhere else - it is history - it has happened - can't be changed. You don't have to speak with a British accent to have British history. We all recognize comments like these for what they are - cheap shots by petty people who are trying to make other people feel bad to make themselves feel better.

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Old Apr 19th 2009, 2:01 pm
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Default Re: Taboo-subjects in NZ?

Originally Posted by fish.01
As an impartial observer (an Aussie) I think the All Blacks are way more talented than the English (and Australian) team. Even though they lose sometimes it is obvious they are a better side with more talented players.
yeah it was quite amusing watching the wobblies get beaten in the trinations at Eden Park, especially sat on the terraces with a few Aussies around. some good banter being given/had there.

Most sportsmen will agree however that it is winning the competitions that counts not your world ranking points or how well you do between the championchips. I'm happy to train well but I want to perform when I'm playing in a competative match. Winning the world cup is the be-all-and-end-all, and if you are the best team in the world then losing it for so many years is failure, plain and simple.

On the other hand NZ does attract a few players from the "other" "small pacific nations"....LOL, not that England or Australia are totally averse to that in any sport.....
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Old Apr 19th 2009, 2:04 pm
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Default Re: Taboo-subjects in NZ?

Originally Posted by THR
I would be very grateful if you told me what are the so called taboo-subjects to talk about in NZ. If a person wants to visit NZ are there some issues which you better not talk about, such as if you visit Northern-Ireland you may not be very wise to talk about religion or if you visit Australia you may irritate your hosts if you tell them how badly they have treated the aboriginals.

Are there any such subjects with NZ that if you start talking about those subjects there's bound to be an argument if not even a fight?
As an Aussie I don't mind if you discuss the bad treatment of Aboriginals. I welcome it. I just don't like the often automatic assumption that none of us care or discuss it and that we all need you to tell us about it before we would notice.

As an Australian I would have had far more discussions about the problems/solutions/issues and would know far more about the topic then you. It has been an ongoing major debate in Australia for my whole life. It's like an 18yo Mormon from Salt Lake City turning up on your doorstep on the other side of the world and offering you all sorts of advice of life - sure, lets talk, but you're going to get far more out of the conversation than me.
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Old Apr 19th 2009, 2:10 pm
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Default Re: Taboo-subjects in NZ?

Originally Posted by lardyl
yeah it was quite amusing watching the wobblies get beaten in the trinations at Eden Park, especially sat on the terraces with a few Aussies around. some good banter being given/had there.

Most sportsmen will agree however that it is winning the competitions that counts not your world ranking points or how well you do between the championchips. I'm happy to train well but I want to perform when I'm playing in a competative match. Winning the world cup is the be-all-and-end-all, and if you are the best team in the world then losing it for so many years is failure, plain and simple.

On the other hand NZ does attract a few players from the "other" "small pacific nations"....LOL, not that England or Australia are totally averse to that in any sport.....
In the world where one upmanship is the goal, sure - it's great to win. But if I had to watch the English or All Blacks team play for the 4 years in between the world cups...the choice is clear. If knowing how to play the game at its best is the goal, the All Blacks are a great success.

Last edited by fish.01; Apr 19th 2009 at 2:15 pm.
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Old Apr 19th 2009, 2:11 pm
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Default Re: Taboo-subjects in NZ?

Originally Posted by fish.01
If Britain had to rely on the quality of that analysis there would be no British history....thank god there are smart British as well.
haha - just as smart, hard working and self-effacing as the Kiwis think you Aussies are, yeah right.........
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Old Apr 19th 2009, 2:15 pm
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Default Re: Taboo-subjects in NZ?

Originally Posted by fish.01
In the world where one upmanship is the goal, sure - it's great to win. But if I had to watch the English or All Blacks team play for the 4 years in between the world cups...the choice is clear.
It's always been like that mate, winners go with cups and cups with winners. World rankings and point scores have been made up in these days of "one upmnaship" to make it more interesting. Saying we're the best in the world and not doing the business on the field when it counts don't cut it. Life's hard eh?

As an England football fan I know all about under-acheivement on the footie field.
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