Taboo-subjects in NZ?
#61
Re: Taboo-subjects in NZ?
I think that there is some confusion on this thread as to what history actually means.
History is a study of the past with particular reference to written/visible records and evidence. A number of the posts on here are referring to culture and mythology rather than history. The Maori did not have any written records of their arrival in NZ, and the verbal records are limited at best.
I agree that it may be somewhat arrogant to discount their culture and beliefs, but referring solely to their history as a record of past events (the way in which the term has been used since the 15th century), then their history is indeed limited. They existed before the Europeans arrived, but visible historical evidence is very much lacking relative to European cultures. There is no denying that fact, just as there is no denying the fact that there is more historical evidence of WW2 than there is of Pythagorus writing his theorem in the Sahara Desert for the Martians to see how intelligent we are.
History is a study of the past with particular reference to written/visible records and evidence. A number of the posts on here are referring to culture and mythology rather than history. The Maori did not have any written records of their arrival in NZ, and the verbal records are limited at best.
I agree that it may be somewhat arrogant to discount their culture and beliefs, but referring solely to their history as a record of past events (the way in which the term has been used since the 15th century), then their history is indeed limited. They existed before the Europeans arrived, but visible historical evidence is very much lacking relative to European cultures. There is no denying that fact, just as there is no denying the fact that there is more historical evidence of WW2 than there is of Pythagorus writing his theorem in the Sahara Desert for the Martians to see how intelligent we are.
Oh ! so because Maori have a long oral culture it's not relevant.
What evidence do you have to say that verbal records are limited ?
The only limitation is that they are held sacred by whanau not basterdised by the pen of others.
#62
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Joined: Apr 2008
Location: Epsom
Posts: 1,705
Re: Taboo-subjects in NZ?
I think that there is some confusion on this thread as to what history actually means.
History is a study of the past with particular reference to written/visible records and evidence. A number of the posts on here are referring to culture and mythology rather than history. The Maori did not have any written records of their arrival in NZ, and the verbal records are limited at best.
I agree that it may be somewhat arrogant to discount their culture and beliefs, but referring solely to their history as a record of past events (the way in which the term has been used since the 15th century), then their history is indeed limited. They existed before the Europeans arrived, but visible historical evidence is very much lacking relative to European cultures. There is no denying that fact, just as there is no denying the fact that there is more historical evidence of WW2 than there is of Pythagorus writing his theorem in the Sahara Desert for the Martians to see how intelligent we are.
History is a study of the past with particular reference to written/visible records and evidence. A number of the posts on here are referring to culture and mythology rather than history. The Maori did not have any written records of their arrival in NZ, and the verbal records are limited at best.
I agree that it may be somewhat arrogant to discount their culture and beliefs, but referring solely to their history as a record of past events (the way in which the term has been used since the 15th century), then their history is indeed limited. They existed before the Europeans arrived, but visible historical evidence is very much lacking relative to European cultures. There is no denying that fact, just as there is no denying the fact that there is more historical evidence of WW2 than there is of Pythagorus writing his theorem in the Sahara Desert for the Martians to see how intelligent we are.
#63
Forum Regular
Joined: Feb 2009
Location: Wellington
Posts: 217
Re: Taboo-subjects in NZ?
I think that there is some confusion on this thread as to what history actually means.
History is a study of the past with particular reference to written/visible records and evidence. A number of the posts on here are referring to culture and mythology rather than history. The Maori did not have any written records of their arrival in NZ, and the verbal records are limited at best.
History is a study of the past with particular reference to written/visible records and evidence. A number of the posts on here are referring to culture and mythology rather than history. The Maori did not have any written records of their arrival in NZ, and the verbal records are limited at best.
I actually googled definitions of history, and whilst some of the dictionaries and other sources list written history as one of the subcategories of history, some don't mention the word written at all, such ashttp://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/history .
(And myths most certainly are history as well: they are the embodiment of our joint cultural history, and myths are not just false beliefs or interesting stories. They are the cultural code of humankind carrying historical information on the evolution of cultures and beliefs. I specialised in myths and myth theories and wrote my thesis on them -but will not continue on this subject as I could go on for years )
#64
Re: Taboo-subjects in NZ?
Again there is a lot of confusion on here.
I have not said that Maori do not have history, I am saying that coming from Europe, it is relative, and it is difficult for you to 'see' the history in NZ when used to seeing the old thatched cottages, historical archives and stately buildings. Before the European arrival in NZ, there are only oral records and comparatively there is a lack of visible history.
This is not a racist, European view on history. I only use Europe as the example because that is where most of us come from! The Chinese have a rich and full history. Other places such as Thailand/Cambodia, Siam, Iraq/Mesopotamia, Mexico, the Americas, Israel/Palestine, Egypt, etc all have very colourful and visible histories.
I have not said that oral history is not a valid part of history. If you read my post, I have said that Maori oral history is limited at best - not invalid. I have also said that a major component of history is written and visible - again not invalidating oral history at all.
I am able to look at this issue from a kiwi perspective as I was born and raised in NZ. I know a LOT more about the history of this place than the average man on the street, but I have travelled all over the world and found that one thing that I miss coming back to NZ is visible, accessible history. NZ is clearly lacking in this respect.
Mgee, I have also done postgraduate work on cultures and history, and wrote my thesis based on historical debate. I agree with your post, but feel that you have missed the point of mine.
I have not said that Maori do not have history, I am saying that coming from Europe, it is relative, and it is difficult for you to 'see' the history in NZ when used to seeing the old thatched cottages, historical archives and stately buildings. Before the European arrival in NZ, there are only oral records and comparatively there is a lack of visible history.
This is not a racist, European view on history. I only use Europe as the example because that is where most of us come from! The Chinese have a rich and full history. Other places such as Thailand/Cambodia, Siam, Iraq/Mesopotamia, Mexico, the Americas, Israel/Palestine, Egypt, etc all have very colourful and visible histories.
I have not said that oral history is not a valid part of history. If you read my post, I have said that Maori oral history is limited at best - not invalid. I have also said that a major component of history is written and visible - again not invalidating oral history at all.
I am able to look at this issue from a kiwi perspective as I was born and raised in NZ. I know a LOT more about the history of this place than the average man on the street, but I have travelled all over the world and found that one thing that I miss coming back to NZ is visible, accessible history. NZ is clearly lacking in this respect.
Mgee, I have also done postgraduate work on cultures and history, and wrote my thesis based on historical debate. I agree with your post, but feel that you have missed the point of mine.
#65
Re: Taboo-subjects in NZ?
I am able to look at this issue from a kiwi perspective as I was born and raised in NZ. I know a LOT more about the history of this place than the average man on the street, but I have travelled all over the world and found that one thing that I miss coming back to NZ is visible, accessible history. NZ is clearly lacking in this respect.
That is certainly not reflected in your posts, however if that is so then I am wondering exactly what your intent is and why you feel the need to hide your real knowledge.
Like you I have lived in a number of different countries and yes I really missed the physical aspects of history that I was surrounded by in England.
But to my mind NZ history is not just about buildings, it is about specific concepts and values e.g. mana, wairua, aroha etc:-
Aroha ki te tangata - Show respect
Titiro Whakarongo korero - Look, listen before you speak
Kanohi ki te kanohi - Present face to face
Manaaki tangata - Share, host, generosity
Kia tupato - Be cautious
Kaua e mahaki - Do not flaunt your knowledge
Kaua e takahia te mana o te tangata - Do not trample over the mana of people
That is certainly not reflected in your posts, however if that is so then I am wondering exactly what your intent is and why you feel the need to hide your real knowledge.
Like you I have lived in a number of different countries and yes I really missed the physical aspects of history that I was surrounded by in England.
But to my mind NZ history is not just about buildings, it is about specific concepts and values e.g. mana, wairua, aroha etc:-
Aroha ki te tangata - Show respect
Titiro Whakarongo korero - Look, listen before you speak
Kanohi ki te kanohi - Present face to face
Manaaki tangata - Share, host, generosity
Kia tupato - Be cautious
Kaua e mahaki - Do not flaunt your knowledge
Kaua e takahia te mana o te tangata - Do not trample over the mana of people
#66
Forum Regular
Joined: Mar 2009
Location: Dunedin
Posts: 45
Re: Taboo-subjects in NZ?
I am able to look at this issue from a kiwi perspective as I was born and raised in NZ. I know a LOT more about the history of this place than the average man on the street, but I have travelled all over the world and found that one thing that I miss coming back to NZ is visible, accessible history. NZ is clearly lacking in this respect.
That is certainly not reflected in your posts, however if that is so then I am wondering exactly what your intent is and why you feel the need to hide your real knowledge.
Like you I have lived in a number of different countries and yes I really missed the physical aspects of history that I was surrounded by in England.
But to my mind NZ history is not just about buildings, it is about specific concepts and values e.g. mana, wairua, aroha etc:-
Aroha ki te tangata - Show respect
Titiro Whakarongo korero - Look, listen before you speak
Kanohi ki te kanohi - Present face to face
Manaaki tangata - Share, host, generosity
Kia tupato - Be cautious
Kaua e mahaki - Do not flaunt your knowledge
Kaua e takahia te mana o te tangata - Do not trample over the mana of people
That is certainly not reflected in your posts, however if that is so then I am wondering exactly what your intent is and why you feel the need to hide your real knowledge.
Like you I have lived in a number of different countries and yes I really missed the physical aspects of history that I was surrounded by in England.
But to my mind NZ history is not just about buildings, it is about specific concepts and values e.g. mana, wairua, aroha etc:-
Aroha ki te tangata - Show respect
Titiro Whakarongo korero - Look, listen before you speak
Kanohi ki te kanohi - Present face to face
Manaaki tangata - Share, host, generosity
Kia tupato - Be cautious
Kaua e mahaki - Do not flaunt your knowledge
Kaua e takahia te mana o te tangata - Do not trample over the mana of people
#67
Forum Regular
Joined: Feb 2009
Location: Wellington
Posts: 217
Re: Taboo-subjects in NZ?
For example, would you really expect the Inuit (=Eskimos) to have a similar culture as, let's say, the Italians? That they try to grow wine, build with stone? Of course not. Yet by your criteria, they still live in the ice age as they do not conform to the European culture(s). Their culture (beliefs, way of life, eating habits, their numerous words for different snow types etc. etc.) is a direct consequence of living in and adapting to the arctic conditions. Every culture is dependent of its own surroundings and thus the culture's beliefs and habits are directly influenced by it. In that sense we are just like any other animal species: we adapt to our environment and find ways to survive in it and, uniquely for the homo sapiens/religiosus, try to explain the conditions and phenomena surrounding us through belief systems and religions. It would have made very little sense for the Maori to develop an European style culture, belief system and habits as they never lived in Europe, nor does their culture have the same evolutionary history. Their culture (beliefs, habits, language etc.) adapted to the world they lived in and evolved accordingly, and thus they cannot be judged by our standards or through the history of our culture.
And when it comes to cannibalism: a Hindu acquaintance of mine was horrified about us Christians eating the body and and drinking the blood of our god -even symbolically. There are numerous things in Western European culture that horrify other cultures and contravene their norms, so we really are not in a position to judge anyone else's cultures, and even less in the position of raising our culture above the other cultures. Doing so is cultural imperialism/colonialism/racism that in the course of history has lead to the oppression and eradication of numerous indigenous cultures around the world.
#68
Re: Taboo-subjects in NZ?
The kiwi`s wont tolerate any disrespect about the All Blacks. Where as us pomms accept that we aren`t going to win the football world cup because our team is crap but we support them anyway , the kiwi`s will not accept that they aren`t the world champions and every game they lose they were robbed !!!!! Roll on 2011. I`d love to see England beat them in the final.
Ash
Ash
#69
Re: Taboo-subjects in NZ?
If Britain had to rely on the quality of that analysis there would be no British history....thank god there are smart British as well.
#70
Re: Taboo-subjects in NZ?
Bit of an arrogant thing to say.
Do you think NZ'ers were magically created out of thin air? The vast majority of them can lay claim to the same history as you can though their English/Scottish/Irish ancestors.
In any case if you don't understand the importance of things like ANZACs then you should perhaps educate yourself. Your statement is pretty much the equivalent of saying Remembrance Day in the UK means nothing.
Do you think NZ'ers were magically created out of thin air? The vast majority of them can lay claim to the same history as you can though their English/Scottish/Irish ancestors.
In any case if you don't understand the importance of things like ANZACs then you should perhaps educate yourself. Your statement is pretty much the equivalent of saying Remembrance Day in the UK means nothing.
Last edited by fish.01; Apr 19th 2009 at 2:12 pm.
#71
you dewty owld maan!
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: is practically perfect in every way
Posts: 5,565
Re: Taboo-subjects in NZ?
Most sportsmen will agree however that it is winning the competitions that counts not your world ranking points or how well you do between the championchips. I'm happy to train well but I want to perform when I'm playing in a competative match. Winning the world cup is the be-all-and-end-all, and if you are the best team in the world then losing it for so many years is failure, plain and simple.
On the other hand NZ does attract a few players from the "other" "small pacific nations"....LOL, not that England or Australia are totally averse to that in any sport.....
#72
Re: Taboo-subjects in NZ?
I would be very grateful if you told me what are the so called taboo-subjects to talk about in NZ. If a person wants to visit NZ are there some issues which you better not talk about, such as if you visit Northern-Ireland you may not be very wise to talk about religion or if you visit Australia you may irritate your hosts if you tell them how badly they have treated the aboriginals.
Are there any such subjects with NZ that if you start talking about those subjects there's bound to be an argument if not even a fight?
Are there any such subjects with NZ that if you start talking about those subjects there's bound to be an argument if not even a fight?
As an Australian I would have had far more discussions about the problems/solutions/issues and would know far more about the topic then you. It has been an ongoing major debate in Australia for my whole life. It's like an 18yo Mormon from Salt Lake City turning up on your doorstep on the other side of the world and offering you all sorts of advice of life - sure, lets talk, but you're going to get far more out of the conversation than me.
#73
Re: Taboo-subjects in NZ?
yeah it was quite amusing watching the wobblies get beaten in the trinations at Eden Park, especially sat on the terraces with a few Aussies around. some good banter being given/had there.
Most sportsmen will agree however that it is winning the competitions that counts not your world ranking points or how well you do between the championchips. I'm happy to train well but I want to perform when I'm playing in a competative match. Winning the world cup is the be-all-and-end-all, and if you are the best team in the world then losing it for so many years is failure, plain and simple.
On the other hand NZ does attract a few players from the "other" "small pacific nations"....LOL, not that England or Australia are totally averse to that in any sport.....
Most sportsmen will agree however that it is winning the competitions that counts not your world ranking points or how well you do between the championchips. I'm happy to train well but I want to perform when I'm playing in a competative match. Winning the world cup is the be-all-and-end-all, and if you are the best team in the world then losing it for so many years is failure, plain and simple.
On the other hand NZ does attract a few players from the "other" "small pacific nations"....LOL, not that England or Australia are totally averse to that in any sport.....
Last edited by fish.01; Apr 19th 2009 at 2:15 pm.
#74
you dewty owld maan!
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: is practically perfect in every way
Posts: 5,565
#75
you dewty owld maan!
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: is practically perfect in every way
Posts: 5,565
Re: Taboo-subjects in NZ?
As an England football fan I know all about under-acheivement on the footie field.