LittleGreyCat

Wasn't Poland subsequently given to Russia?

morpeth

This seems to be one of the problems in politicians not knowing what to do as they will not confront the problems of large immigration from non-western countries. Will Germany be German in another 1 or 2 generations most Germans deep down question yet political correctness means opposition to immigration needs to find some practical reason- security or jobs for example. Doesn't every country have the right to its own culture ? Just as in say Afghanistan many might be opposed to modern Western culture- we of course disagree with their means, but it is a reflection of problems in globalism.

Kotare

I think you will find the Russians got as far as Berlin before the post war politicians got to work - what a short memory the world has

morpeth

Two different issues, how far Russian army got, and second after the war where territory was assigned.

Kotare

Yes and the flood of refugees were fleeing tbe Russian Army.

LittleGreyCat

Given that the Berlin Wall was right through the middle of Berlin and everything to the East was Russian territory I reckon the Russian army mostly got what they had already occupied.

The certainly got Poland.

Gordon Barlow

Better to be accurate, here. Poland was always nominally independent (a bit like the NATO nations are today), but in any case it was the Soviet Union that controlled most of eastern Europe, not Russia. Stalin was a Georgian, and many of the Soviet's senior executives were Ukrainian and Belorussian. As were many of the Soviet Army's soldiers.

morpeth

Agree accuracy is important. The use of the word Russian as opposed to Soviet Union is common, just as the use of England to mean Great Britain. Yes Stalin was Georgian but I believe the overwhelming percentage of the leaders of the Soviet Union have been Russian or at least from Russia. I am unsure where the idea comes from in modern times that Poland has always been independent, more often than not the last few centuries it hasn't been, in particular the current geographic territory it now occupies. For example the ethnic cleansing of Germans after world war two meant areas traditionally German became Polish, and to the east if I am not mistaken there was territory traditionally Polish that was absorbed into the Soviet Union.

Charismatic

It's certainly proving to be a rough couple of years in continental Europe and events appear to be accelerating in frequency .

It must be clear now that legal, vetting, integration and security arrangements have been woefully ill prepared for the absolutely immense task they now face. It's difficult to see how states can now deal with with current demand much less the legacy issues they now face.

Gordon Barlow

Poland's Wikipedia entry has two or three very interesting maps of Poland's growth and shrinkage over the centuries, so it's quite difficult for this outsider at least (viz, me) to determine which territories were "traditionally" Polish and which weren't. Much of the eastern losses to the Soviet Union are no doubt claimed by the Belorussians as traditionally Belorussian - although historically it has frequently been claimed that today's Belorussians were traditionally regarded as just a variety of Russian. As were Ukrainians, too.

As for the independence of Poland... as I understand it, the government of Poland in recent times comprised only (or mainly?) native Polish representatives. Certainly the Soviet Union set Poland's foreign policy after WWII, but then pretty much the same thing could be said of the USA setting its NATO satrapies' foreign policy, including Poland's.

morpeth

By traditionally Polish I didn't mean traditionally governed by a Polish state, but areas where the majority were Polish, same goes for the Germans expelled after world war two.

Gordon Barlow

OK, fair enough. You have exhausted my scant knowledge of the region! I've no idea where the ethnic Poles start and finish - or indeed just the Polish-speakers. Or the ethnic Germans.

As a young man, in 1965, I travelled through the Sachsen area of Transylvania, speaking my wretched pidgin German as a relief from my zero Romanian. Theirs was a thriving region, and a hospitable people. But perhaps a bit naive; "Oh, the War wasn't too bad", they told me; I don't suppose that sentiment went down well with the government of the day. Somebody told me there were 250,000 of them. Wikipedia says there are only thirty-odd thousand Sachsens in the whole of Romania now, after the ethnic cleansing.

Kotare

and all I originally said was 'Nothing new in refugees - my wife's family got out of Silesia just before the Russians moved in.' As far as they were concerned they were fleeing a raping pillaging Russian Army (that had lots of ethnic groups in it - as did the German Army of course). Not sure they were too concerned with the semantics of nationality.

Gordon Barlow

Ah well, we all know how these threads can get off track. The Original Post (#1) by Charismatic didn't even mention Silesia or the Soviet Army or the German Army. So, it all goes to show... I see that Silesia was part of Germany in 1945. As a matter of interest (going off-topic again!), was the family ethnically German or Polish?

Kotare

German