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On Humanism and Religion

On Humanism and Religion

Old Jan 7th 2015, 9:44 pm
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Default Re: On Humanism and Religion

Originally Posted by Shard
Agree that extremism is only one aspect in the case against religion. However, dismissing it away (as you have done) on the basis that there will always be extremists is erroneous thinking. Religion makes for a fertile breeding ground of extremists, so the two are linked.
Not sure I understand what your point is?

I didn't say religious extremism will always be there. I said "perhaps forever", perhaps being the operative word, I'm not (and can't be) certain either way.

I then go on to suggest that violent activity will simply be taken up by another angry section of society. Indeed the recent Ferguson riots are an example of where people who feel oppressed and offended rise up against their "enemy".

The two are of course inextricably linked, but as I elude to discussing "a case against religion" is a moot point as religion can't be simply made to disappear.

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Old Jan 7th 2015, 9:54 pm
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Default Re: On Humanism and Religion

Originally Posted by TommyLuck
Not sure I understand what your point is?

I then go on to suggest that violent activity will simply be taken up by another angry section of society.

The two are of course inextricably linked, but as I elude to discussing "a case against religion" is a moot point as religion can't be simply made to disappear.
Religion can't be made to disappear over night, but it can be dismantled over many decades. Indeed that is what has happened and is happening accross Europe. Well, with the exception of our new prophet loving friends.

I would say the moot point on this topic is that "violent activity will be taken up by another angry section". It will, but that does not mean that violent activity by the religious is irrelevant (or less relevant).
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Old Jan 7th 2015, 10:08 pm
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Default Re: On Humanism and Religion

I agree that religion, bit by bit, is becoming less important in some parts of the world. But decades is a short timescale, perhaps millennia is a more realistic estimate.

I think we are debating slightly different issues here.

Relevance is not in my thinking, simply that tackling religious extremism in its self is a big enough job for the world to deal with.

Making a successful case against religion, or cutting the head off the beast is in all likelihood an insurmountable task.
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Old Jan 7th 2015, 10:34 pm
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Default Re: On Humanism and Religion

Originally Posted by TommyLuck
I agree that religion, bit by bit, is becoming less important in some parts of the world. But decades is a short timescale, perhaps millennia is a more realistic estimate.

I think we are debating slightly different issues here.

Relevance is not in my thinking, simply that tackling religious extremism in its self is a big enough job for the world to deal with.

Making a successful case against religion, or cutting the head off the beast is in all likelihood an insurmountable task.
Have faith!! Religion can be eradicated. Think of how much weaker Christianity is in 2015 compared to 1915. As science progresses, as the sheep become more aware of their dwindling numbers, and of the deceptions that have been placed on them, Christianity will crumble.

Even now, the number of true believers is far less than those who profess to be believers. In Britain it's mostly those at heavens door or those who want to join the club for social/school reasons. 40% of churches lack congregations; the clergy are scrambling at popular make overs. I give it 50 more years, but would accept it might be double that. Not millennia. No way.
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Old Jan 7th 2015, 10:34 pm
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Default Re: On Humanism and Religion

Originally Posted by TommyLuck
Not sure I understand what your point is?

I didn't say religious extremism will always be there. I said "perhaps forever", perhaps being the operative word, I'm not (and can't be) certain either way.

I then go on to suggest that violent activity will simply be taken up by another angry section of society. Indeed the recent Ferguson riots are an example of where people who feel oppressed and offended rise up against their "enemy".

The two are of course inextricably linked, but as I elude to discussing "a case against religion" is a moot point as religion can't be simply made to disappear.
Maybe some people who feel oppressed and offended actually are.
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Old Jan 7th 2015, 11:05 pm
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Default Re: On Humanism and Religion

Originally Posted by Shard
Have faith!! Religion can be eradicated. Think of how much weaker Christianity is in 2015 compared to 1915. As science progresses, as the sheep become more aware of their dwindling numbers, and of the deceptions that have been placed on them, Christianity will crumble.

Even now, the number of true believers is far less than those who profess to be believers. In Britain it's mostly those at heavens door or those who want to join the club for social/school reasons. 40% of churches lack congregations; the clergy are scrambling at popular make overs. I give it 50 more years, but would accept it might be double that. Not millennia. No way.
It's a shame neither of us is likely to be about for long enough to know how this pans out, otherwise I'd suggest a wager!!

Anyway, you're now talking about one religion, when my original discussion point was "the case against religion".

And there are no Christian extremists (as far as I'm aware?), so I'm not sure the fall of Christianity will help to detriment Islamic extremism anyway.


Originally Posted by Sally Redux
Maybe some people who feel oppressed and offended actually are.
Indeed. I'm not expressing an opinion on whether they should or shouldn't be.
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Old Jan 7th 2015, 11:15 pm
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Default Re: On Humanism and Religion

Originally Posted by TommyLuck
It's a shame neither of us is likely to be about for long enough to know how this pans out, otherwise I'd suggest a wager!!
A damn shame! However, to continue with my over-optimistic projections, maybe they can genetic engineer us humans to live a lot longer

Certainly the prognosis for the demise other religions is not so good. In reality Judaism is probably the most likely long term model (for evolved religion), where most adherents are culturally but not spiritually (and hence irrationally) religious.
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Old Jan 7th 2015, 11:23 pm
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Default Re: On Humanism and Religion

You mean if the machines don't get us ... ?

The weight of evidence of science is so massive now, that there must be creationists who at least in secret doubt "the beginning". Imagine if Darwin could see what we know now.

In my experience, I agree with your observation of Judaism.

Although I've known many a Jew to pick and choose when they adhere to the various disciplines expected of them ...
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Old Jan 7th 2015, 11:27 pm
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Default Re: On Humanism and Religion

Originally Posted by TommyLuck
It's a shame neither of us is likely to be about for long enough to know how this pans out, otherwise I'd suggest a wager!!

Anyway, you're now talking about one religion, when my original discussion point was "the case against religion".

And there are no Christian extremists (as far as I'm aware?), so I'm not sure the fall of Christianity will help to detriment Islamic extremism anyway.
Leaving the IRA out of it, I've picked the main points out of a list of Christian/white supremacist attacks:

10 of the Worst Terror Attacks by Extreme Christians and Far-Right White Men | Alternet

1. Wisconsin Sikh Temple massacre, Aug. 5, 2012. White supremacist Wade Michael Page used a semiautomatic weapon to murder six people during an attack on a Sikh temple in Oak Creek, Wisconsin.

2. The murder of Dr. George Tiller, May 31, 2009. Shot and killed by anti-abortion terrorist Scott Roeder.

3. Knoxville Unitarian Universalist Church shooting, July 27, 2008. Christian Right sympathizer Jim David Adkisson walked into the Knoxville Unitarian Universalist Church in Knoxville, Tennessee during a children’s play and began shooting people at random. Two were killed, while seven others were injured but survived.

4. The murder of Dr. John Britton, July 29, 1994 by a member of the Army of God, a loose network of radical Christianists with a long history of terrorist attacks on abortion providers.

5. The Centennial Olympic Park bombing, July 27

6. The murder of Barnett Slepian byJames Charles Kopp, Oct. 23, 1998. Abortion doctor

7. Planned Parenthood bombing, Brookline, Massachusetts, 1994.

8. Suicide attack on IRS building in Austin, Texas, Feb. 18, 2010.

9.The murder of Alan Berg, June 18, 1984 killed by white supremacist group.

10. Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City bombing, April 19, 1995.
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Old Jan 7th 2015, 11:33 pm
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Default Re: On Humanism and Religion

Originally Posted by TommyLuck
You mean if the machines don't get us ... ?

...
I do mean precisely that !
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Old Jan 7th 2015, 11:35 pm
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Default Re: On Humanism and Religion

Good work.

Although White Supremacy and religion aren't mutually inclusive of each other.

White supremacy is an ideaology, like religion I suppose based on racism.

You mention the IRA, but that's Christians at a religious war with Christians, exacerbated by various factors not necessary directly related to religion.

Islamic extremism has a rather different aim although come to the same conclusion as to how to settle their aim.

This list largely highlights that Christians pick on other people with at the bare minimum have at least Christian roots.

There are forms of Christian Extremism I suppose, one springs to mind are those lunatics who vehemently, aggressively and violently oppose homosexuality, which is just as awful.

Can we get back to Islamic extremism ... ?

Last edited by TommyLuck; Jan 7th 2015 at 11:39 pm.
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Old Jan 8th 2015, 12:32 am
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People often forget that what we think of as modern terrorism, which began in the sixties with plane hijackings, Dawsons Field and the like, in the name of the Palestinian cause, were nearly all orchestrated by Christians.
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Old Jan 8th 2015, 1:17 am
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Default Re: On Humanism and Religion

Originally Posted by Shard
Agree that extremism is only one aspect in the case against religion. However, dismissing it away (as you have done) on the basis that there will always be extremists is erroneous thinking. Religion makes for a fertile breeding ground of extremists, so the two are linked.
I think you dismiss too much goodwill and portray an unwarranted self righteous attitude that is wrong.
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Old Jan 8th 2015, 8:06 am
  #104  
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Default Re: On Humanism and Religion

Salman Rushdie:
Religion, a mediaeval form of unreason, when combined with modern weaponry becomes a real threat to our freedoms.

"This religious totalitarianism has caused a deadly mutation in the heart of Islam and we see the tragic consequences in Paris today.

"I stand with Charlie Hebdo, as we all must, to defend the art of satire, which has always been a force for liberty and against tyranny, dishonesty and stupidity.

"'Respect for religion' has become a code phrase meaning 'fear of religion.' Religions, like all other ideas, deserve criticism, satire, and, yes, our fearless disrespect."

Ian Hislop:
"I am appalled and shocked by this horrific attack - a murderous attack on free speech in the heart of Europe.

I offer my condolences to the families and friends of those killed - the cartoonists, journalists and those who were trying to protect them.

They paid a very high price for exercising their comic liberty.

Very little seems funny today."
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Old Jan 8th 2015, 8:08 am
  #105  
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Default Re: On Humanism and Religion

Originally Posted by Parnell
I think you dismiss too much goodwill and portray an unwarranted self righteous attitude that is wrong.
I think you assume religion is a prerequisite for goodwill and overlook it's nasty side.
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