mission

i'm boycotting her films...she served in the IDF and is a staunch anti-Palestinian supporter....may she burn in hell!

Miss Ann Thrope

Just a question, to stir things up: what's the difference between Israel (established as a Jewish homeland) and Pakistan (established as a sub-continent Muslim homeland)? Apart from the fact that far fewer people were displaced and killed as a result of Israel's formation. Oh, and Pakistan is one year older.

jam25mack

al dente

Don't all Israeli's do national service?

jam25mack

Yup. Women included. They have some of the best female fighters in the world and one of the best secret services. In fact it's not uncommon for Jews born and bred elsewhere to travel to Israel to undertake voluntary military service.

mission

yep they do, but she SUPPORTS what the IDF do.

mission

Surely you are not insinuating that Pakistan and Israel are on par

Miss Ann Thrope

I'm glad you took this in the spirit that I meant it! But it is a genuine question: if one challenges the basis of the state of Israel, then shouldn't the basis of the state of Pakistan also be subjected to the same question? You guess this is one of the topics that gets discussed periodically in our house....

However, you just made an issue about the IDF behaviour, which I think is a fair point. I don't know where you stand on the question I asked and I shouldn't infer anything, but the parallels are striking when you delve into it (not least also that both countries receive significant US military aid).

mission

Errr the 'forming' of pakistan and israel are entirely on two different levels.
Pakistan was formed due to the partition from India and is a legitimate country.(by the way i am not pakistani and so i am not too familiar with the full history).
Israel on the other hand IMO is an illegal state - it's stolen, occupied and ruling land that belongs to the Palestinians.
you are comparing apples to oranges here...unless i'm missing something?

IKnowNothing

I wholeheartedly agree, the holocaust was a god-send for the jews, just like Munich was to Man U.

(Gets hard hat)

Miss Ann Thrope

I guess this forum is not the ideal place for this discussion but I'd encourage you to do your own research if you can find reasonably balanced or neutral sources. Below is my crude take and why I raised the point.

Following a successful campaign by Zionist groups after WW2 and in the shadow of the holocaust, Israel was established by a UN mandate which divided the territory of Palestine between Jews (many of whom were not recent arrivals) and Arabs. The Palestinian land that Israel occupied subsequently was as a result of the war initiated by the Palestinians upon partition. The further expansion of Israel was as a result of the 1967 war which was also the result of an attack by the combined Arab forces.

Pakistan was established because the Muslim League prevailed in their campaign to have a separate homeland for Muslims in the sub-continent. The non-Muslim populations of the territories that formed Pakistan (East and West then, recall) were substantially displaced. Many more millions of people lost their homes and lands as a result of the partition of India than as a result of the "naqbah". Hundreds of thousands of people, Muslims and non-Muslims, were killed during the chaos that followed India's partition: far, far more than in the Middle East.

When you look at the cold hard facts that way, there is a lot in common between the two countries: not least the hand of the same foreign power in both messes. I'm no apologist for Israel but I note that a lot of the things that people report as "facts" about it are highly distorted - Trump levels of fake news!

Miss Ann Thrope

Just like all human misery is for the low-rent provocateur...

mission

I get all that, but Israel has been in constant violation of those borders set out in 1967. Israel in plain and simple terms is committing genocide of the Palestinians.
As for Pakistan - i can't really comment...i'm not sure which race of people you are referring to when you say 'The non-Muslim populations of the territories that formed Pakistan (East and West then, recall) were substantially displaced' - if these are Indians in the main, then wouldn't they have gone to India?

Miss Ann Thrope

What's an "Indian"? If you were a Sindhi Hindu from Karachi, for example, you were SOL... I guess it was even worse in East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) where there was a very substantial non-Muslim minority, including people of traditional religions. Most of them had to leave to areas where people didn't speak their language or share their culture - though they were the lucky ones....

To be honest, I am tired of how the whole Israeli/Palestinian conflict has consumed the world's attention when so few people are affected relative to other territorial disputes (Darfur for example, or West Papua). And both sides act like dicks - but then that's true everywhere such conflicts arise I guess...

mission

for me, living in this region and knowing a number of Palestinians brings the issue 'closer' to home, if you know what i mean.