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Old Nov 8th 2017, 12:33 pm   #61
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Default Re: Remembrance Poppies

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Originally Posted by Miss Ann Thrope View Post
But it's in the Grauniad so of course it has to have clever references...
True. Bastards.

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Originally Posted by Dubaiexile View Post
This is why the following words were invented;

Thingamajig

whatchamacallit

Etc etc

It comes to you eventually, but a tad irritating when it is on the tip of your tongue!
Or in French, 'machin'
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Old Nov 9th 2017, 3:26 am   #62
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Default Re: Remembrance Poppies

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Originally Posted by Scamp View Post
True. Bastards.

Or in French, 'machin'
Or in Lebanese Arabic 'shoo ismac' literally what's your name

Last edited by weasel decentral; Nov 9th 2017 at 4:33 am.
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Old Nov 9th 2017, 4:24 am   #63
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Default Re: Remembrance Poppies

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Originally Posted by weasel decentral View Post
It's possible to be against the division of Ireland and not be a rabid IRA supporter .

To make it clear I can't donate to a charity who support servicemen who were involved in:
Collusion with terrorist organisatons
Summary executions ('shoot to kill' policy)
Internment
Opening fire on civilians
I was not going to respond to this post, but it has been eating away at me and would be out of character not to so here goes, but first let me reiterate each person has the right to his/her opinion and I respect that, so the following is not a personal attack!;

1.Collusion with terrorist organisations

By this I am assuming you mean the Government of the days collusion, of which I will not say did not happen, but was used as a means to fight against the IRA...it was a dirty "war" and dirty tactics had to be used, although some of them I do not condone, others I do!
But also to be highlighted is the IRA collusion, training and in some cases arming of other terrorist organisations, ETA & FARC are prime examples plus the training in Libyan camps of the PLO.
How terrorists acquire technology and training: lessons from the IRA

2. Shoot to kill Policy

This has never been proven even by the committee set up to investigate it, although it is my belief that at certain times there was a policy, of which I would have endorsed, if it meant one less mindless bomb in a packed street in the Mainland!
No one ever talks about the IRA`s policy of assassination of RUC officers or anyone else they can get their hands on ( Ross McWhirter), and if possible preceded by lengthy and inhuman torture (of which I have seen the aftermath!). Knee cappings, obstensibly as punishments, no just to keep the drugs trade in line or as a method of extortion of funds!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoot-...rthern_Ireland

3.Internment

I cannot see anything wrong in locking up terrorists, even on suspicion only, if it keeps the general populace safe from murder and mayhem!
The romanticised picture of the hooded gunman fighting for freedom is as far from the truth as it could be, they were as fanatical as modern day ISIS, and cared not a jot for whom they butchered, maimed and killed along the way!

4.Opening fire on Civilians

It was the IRA snipers policy to use the civilian populace as cover for their various forays against the RUC/British Army or somebody they perceived had crossed them. So inevitably there were going to be civilian casualties as a result of any fire returned!
But I suspect that you would be referring to one incident only and that of the so called Bloody Sunday, when the Para`s did return fire. It was an incident that should not have happened, and blame , in my view, lies equally with both sides.
Finally opening fire on Civilians, and I would include here every single bomb that the IRA planted on the mainland and in N.Ireland that was done with pre-meditation to cause maximum carnage, injury and loss of life as they could possibly pack into the device and this to a civilian population!

I personally did 4 tours there and have extremely strong views on this subject, and as such this will be my final say on this subject!

Remembrance day for me is a time of reflection, on colleagues I have lost, and on the lasting wish that any politician anywhere thinks long and hard before ordering anyone to war!


"Violence begets violence by whomever used. War is a dirty business and entails the use of degrading means, whoever wages it."

A. J. Muste
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Old Nov 9th 2017, 4:45 am   #64
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Default Re: Remembrance Poppies

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Originally Posted by Dubaiexile View Post
Remembrance day for me is a time of reflection, and on the lasting wish that any politician anywhere thinks long and hard before ordering anyone to war!
This part I agree fully with and is what I believe the poppy was originally meant to signify but it has gotten distorted in meaning in recent years.

Appreciate the post, and I certainly don't take any of it personally as I detest the IRA and all it stands for. I equally would not donate to anything which their organisation benefits from!

On the specifics of your post I'm sure most of what you say is true however I don't think that ever justifies lowering to the same standards/actions as terrorist organisations (worldwide not just Ireland). To use a Belfast phrase too much 'whatabouttery'
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Old Nov 9th 2017, 4:54 am   #65
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Default Re: Remembrance Poppies

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Originally Posted by weasel decentral View Post
Or in Lebanese Arabic 'shoo ismac' literally what's your name
Good knowledge.

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Originally Posted by weasel decentral View Post
This part I agree fully with and is what I believe the poppy was originally meant to signify but it has gotten distorted in meaning in recent years.
Amen. It seems to have become a tool in recent years to start arguments with.
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Old Nov 9th 2017, 10:21 am   #66
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Default Re: Remembrance Poppies

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Originally Posted by Dubaiexile View Post

Remembrance day for me is a time of reflection, on colleagues I have lost, and on the lasting wish that any politician anywhere thinks long and hard before ordering anyone to war!
which is what infuriates me about the furor surrounding remembrance day and the poppy as a symbol.

we all get so het up about it that we forget that we can even disagree freely because of sacrifices made. right or wrong they led us to today where we can freely and should freely disagree. but what we should never do is forget why we can disagree.

I also disagree extremely strongly with the the poppy being used as some form of recruitment tool or as a banner to stand behind and to point at "the other". It's a complete contradiction and frankly an insult to the process and purpose of remembrance.

For me personally I remember the dead in my family, my friends who still serve and that war should always be the last possible action or consideration.

I worked for a while as a young man in a military museum, I read the journals and letter of kids who'd lied about their age to serve in the great war with excitement and pride. The letters of fathers with young kids at home. I read the regimental records documenting the hundreds upon hundreds of dead and injured in battles whose sites still bear the geographical scars of that conflict.
Well over 20 years later those writings still haunt me around this time of year.


The poppy was chosen as a symbol for a very good reason and in the aftermath of a war that was as close to hell as man will maybe ever get. 9 million dead, 38 million casualties. Numbers so large that we can barely comprehend them today.


They were the first flower to grow on the western front battlefields that were completely denuded after the war. They grew from churned up earth still full of the dead and obliterated, made extremely fertile by literally the blood and flesh of millions. A curious property of the poppy is that it needs this churned up earth to flourish along with fertile soil.

The poppy and act of remembrance has been hijacked by differing political sides. One as a tool for recruitment and conformity and one as a symbol of oppression.

We must never forget that it is neither and never will be.

It is a symbol to remember the dead and those who still suffer the mental and physical wounds of war and that we as a species are still stupid enough to be sending young men and women off to war at all.


"They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them."

For the moment we forget, we set ourselves on the path of inevitably repeating the same errors again.

This Sunday I will go and stand in a freezing churchyard in a tiny village with far too many names on its war memorial and i will remember. I will remember those on all sides in all wars.
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Old Nov 9th 2017, 1:19 pm   #67
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Default Re: Remembrance Poppies

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiva View Post
which is what infuriates me about the furor surrounding remembrance day and the poppy as a symbol.

we all get so het up about it that we forget that we can even disagree freely because of sacrifices made. right or wrong they led us to today where we can freely and should freely disagree. but what we should never do is forget why we can disagree.

I also disagree extremely strongly with the the poppy being used as some form of recruitment tool or as a banner to stand behind and to point at "the other". It's a complete contradiction and frankly an insult to the process and purpose of remembrance.

For me personally I remember the dead in my family, my friends who still serve and that war should always be the last possible action or consideration.

I worked for a while as a young man in a military museum, I read the journals and letter of kids who'd lied about their age to serve in the great war with excitement and pride. The letters of fathers with young kids at home. I read the regimental records documenting the hundreds upon hundreds of dead and injured in battles whose sites still bear the geographical scars of that conflict.
Well over 20 years later those writings still haunt me around this time of year.


The poppy was chosen as a symbol for a very good reason and in the aftermath of a war that was as close to hell as man will maybe ever get. 9 million dead, 38 million casualties. Numbers so large that we can barely comprehend them today.


They were the first flower to grow on the western front battlefields that were completely denuded after the war. They grew from churned up earth still full of the dead and obliterated, made extremely fertile by literally the blood and flesh of millions. A curious property of the poppy is that it needs this churned up earth to flourish along with fertile soil.

The poppy and act of remembrance has been hijacked by differing political sides. One as a tool for recruitment and conformity and one as a symbol of oppression.

We must never forget that it is neither and never will be.

It is a symbol to remember the dead and those who still suffer the mental and physical wounds of war and that we as a species are still stupid enough to be sending young men and women off to war at all.


"They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them."

For the moment we forget, we set ourselves on the path of inevitably repeating the same errors again.

This Sunday I will go and stand in a freezing churchyard in a tiny village with far too many names on its war memorial and i will remember. I will remember those on all sides in all wars.
And hear endeth this thread because there is absolutely nothing else that needs to be said.
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Old Nov 9th 2017, 2:34 pm   #68
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Default Re: Remembrance Poppies

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And hear endeth this thread because there is absolutely nothing else that needs to be said.
Amen
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Old Nov 9th 2017, 6:32 pm   #69
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Default Re: Remembrance Poppies

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And hear endeth this thread because there is absolutely nothing else that needs to be said.
Hear hear. Thanks Shiva.
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Old Nov 10th 2017, 9:52 am   #70
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Default Re: Remembrance Poppies

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Originally Posted by Miss Ann Thrope View Post
And hear endeth this thread because there is absolutely nothing else that needs to be said.
not my intention but thanks folks.
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Old Nov 13th 2017, 7:12 am   #71
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Default Re: Remembrance Poppies

what vile people! Omagh alert 'attempt to disrupt Remembrance Day' - BBC News
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