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Old Nov 7th 2017, 5:52 am   #16
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Default Re: Remembrance Poppies

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Originally Posted by Dubaiexile View Post
Yes you will derail the thread, but since you pose the question perhaps you could expand your reasons why, and maybe (and I do say maybe) an intellectual debate could be had without name calling and abuse...but given the way some people might feel with regards to support for ex servicemen (and I will admit to being one with 14 years service with the Royal Marines with final rank of Captain), do not expect an easy ride! But hey ho it is a forum to air ones views with a little anonymity making it easier to air feelings that you might not feel comfortable in face to face discussion!
The point is why would an ostensibly - well self-proclaimed - Irish pub be selling something that a great many Irish people might prefer not to support. This fundamentally undermines it's pretence to be what it claims to be. Think if The British Bulldog was selling trinkets which were used to fund former German servicemen from WW2 for example.

I say this as somebody who had a parent who was a member of the British Legion (and I can offer my feelings about the uselessness and cynicism of that outfit from direct experience).
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Old Nov 7th 2017, 6:25 am   #17
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Default Re: Remembrance Poppies

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The point is why would an ostensibly - well self-proclaimed - Irish pub be selling something that a great many Irish people might prefer not to support. This fundamentally undermines it's pretence to be what it claims to be. Think if The British Bulldog was selling trinkets which were used to fund former German servicemen from WW2 for example.

I say this as somebody who had a parent who was a member of the British Legion (and I can offer my feelings about the uselessness and cynicism of that outfit from direct experience).
I'd be proud that we're bigger than history.
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Old Nov 7th 2017, 6:27 am   #18
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Default Re: Remembrance Poppies

In WW1 (which is ostensibly how remembrance day and the poppy came into existence), over 200,000 Irishmen fought with losses of over 30,000, so my argument that this alone should give Irish people some thought to commemorate at least, if not support!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland_and_World_War_I

Running of the British Legion etc I have no experience of so bow to your inside knowledge
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Old Nov 7th 2017, 6:35 am   #19
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Default Re: Remembrance Poppies

Final update from the British Embassy;;

Hi there

Thank you for your enquiry to UAE consular services here at British Embassy

We do have poppies for sale – from our security front gate here at British Embassy – please feel free to come by and donate

Our Remembrance Service is invite only sadly; do you have any contacts that will be attending that can add you as a guest of theirs?
If not, we can advise that there is a service this Friday 10 November at Jebel Ali Christ Church should you wish to pay your respects – details attached
With thanks
Olivia

Olivia Tom | British Embassy Events Co-ordinator, Dubai
British Embassy Dubai | Al Seef Road | Bur Dubai
Email: [email protected] Tel: +971 (0) 4 309 4365 FTN: 485 4365 Mob: +971 (0) 56 170 5139

Invite only, so how do you get on that list??
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Old Nov 7th 2017, 7:20 am   #20
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Default Re: Remembrance Poppies

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Originally Posted by Dubaiexile View Post
Yes you will derail the thread, but since you pose the question perhaps you could expand your reasons why, and maybe (and I do say maybe) an intellectual debate could be had without name calling and abuse...but given the way some people might feel with regards to support for ex servicemen (and I will admit to being one with 14 years service with the Royal Marines with final rank of Captain), do not expect an easy ride! But hey ho it is a forum to air ones views with a little anonymity making it easier to air feelings that you might not feel comfortable in face to face discussion!
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Old Nov 7th 2017, 7:28 am   #21
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Default Re: Remembrance Poppies

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Originally Posted by Miss Ann Thrope View Post
The point is why would an ostensibly - well self-proclaimed - Irish pub be selling something that a great many Irish people might prefer not to support. This fundamentally undermines it's pretence to be what it claims to be. Think if The British Bulldog was selling trinkets which were used to fund former German servicemen from WW2 for example.

I say this as somebody who had a parent who was a member of the British Legion (and I can offer my feelings about the uselessness and cynicism of that outfit from direct experience).
And just one more snippet of history for you, the country with the second highest recipients of the Victoria Cross is Ireland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...oss_recipients
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Old Nov 7th 2017, 7:31 am   #22
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Default Re: Remembrance Poppies

And I must correct myself with the figures I used in my above post with regards to the Irish deaths in WW1;

The most prominent memorial is dedicated to the 49,400 Irish soldiers who died during World War I; this is the Irish National War Memorial Gardens, at Islandbridge in Dublin. It was designed by Edwin Lutyens and first planned in 1919 and was completed in 1938, at a time when Ireland had achieved independence. Despite being a monument to people who fought in the British Army, it received cross-party support, partly because the likes of Major General William Bernard Hickie had been Home Rulers. There are a number of other major monuments relevant to the experience of Irish soldiers in World War I, this time based on the European continent; the Menin Gate in Ypres, Belgium, for example, features the names of many Irish soldiers.[30][31] A second Belgium-based memorial was opened in 1998; the Island of Ireland Peace Park. There also exists in Thiepval, France, a monument called the Ulster Tower to the men who died at the Battle of the Somme.
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Old Nov 7th 2017, 8:29 am   #23
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Default Re: Remembrance Poppies

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Originally Posted by Dubaiexile View Post
And I must correct myself with the figures I used in my above post with regards to the Irish deaths in WW1;

The most prominent memorial is dedicated to the 49,400 Irish soldiers who died during World War I; this is the Irish National War Memorial Gardens, at Islandbridge in Dublin. It was designed by Edwin Lutyens and first planned in 1919 and was completed in 1938, at a time when Ireland had achieved independence. Despite being a monument to people who fought in the British Army, it received cross-party support, partly because the likes of Major General William Bernard Hickie had been Home Rulers. There are a number of other major monuments relevant to the experience of Irish soldiers in World War I, this time based on the European continent; the Menin Gate in Ypres, Belgium, for example, features the names of many Irish soldiers.[30][31] A second Belgium-based memorial was opened in 1998; the Island of Ireland Peace Park. There also exists in Thiepval, France, a monument called the Ulster Tower to the men who died at the Battle of the Somme.
I genuinely apreciate your engagement with this subject because I've seen how ugly and emotive it can easily get (coins thrown at James McClean for not wearing a a poppy ffs).

Allow me to please give you some more nuanced context for why this troubles some of us. Ireland was (an unwilling) part of the UK during WW1 so naturally we supplied much of the cannon fodder for that stupid, avoidable conflict. The Irish soldiers came disproportionately from the northern Unionist communities, who would remain in the UK after the brutal war of independence that was fought against the British forces in Ireland. That war was initiated and given legitimacy by the 1916 Dublin rising against the British government. The UK government, at war with foreign powers, saw the "home" rebellion as high treason and executed all the leaders (except DeValera - yes, Snape - who was an American citizen). The military campaign for independence would never have taken off but for the very brutal treatment of the captured combatants in the 1916 rebellion which turned public opinion sharply in favour of the militants (IRB/IRA).

Hence in Ireland there is a very ambivalent view about WW1. The governments of the Irish freestate and later Republic were dominated by veterans of the 1916 conflict right up until the 1960s and the origin of the state is rooted in the mythology of the 1916 rising. Though there is now a much more nuanced view about this, when I went to school it was clearly taught as the brave historic act that finally liberated Ireland again as an independent nation for the first time in a millennium: A terrible beauty is born. Then following the revival of the IRA in the 1950s and '60s, due to the UK government turning a blind eye to the NI government's massive systemic and crushing discrimination against the minority community in Northern Ireland, the troubles kicked off. This gave rise to a whole new set of negative perceptions of the role of British armed forces in Ireland.

Hence, selling poppies in Irish pubs or expecting Irish footballers to wear poppies in some craven act of submission to the "popular will" seems inappropriate, to say the least. I'd also be opposed to Fibbers - or anywhere - selling Easter lillies (SF/IRA commemoration of 1916).

My father, whose father was a member of the IRA and fought in the 1916 rising (so guess which parent wasn't in the British legion), used to take me to the Islandbridge gardens and also to the memorial to the Republican war dead in Parnell Square - foreshadowing by four decades the brilliantly planned and executed itinerary of the queen when she reconquered Ireland (just hearts and minds this time) a few years ago.
I am fiercely proud of my British mother's medalled service in the WACS during WW2, a brutally necessary conflict. I am also ashamed that the Irish government has never acknowledged the service of thousands of citizens of the Irish freestate who fought fascism in the Spanish civil war and WW2. I disagree with Ireland's neutrality. I admire John Redmond. I still couldn't wear a poppy.

Last edited by Miss Ann Thrope; Nov 7th 2017 at 8:38 am.
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Old Nov 7th 2017, 8:39 am   #24
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Default Re: Remembrance Poppies

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ex servicemen (and I will admit to being one with 14 years service with the Royal Marines with final rank of Captain)!
What are your thoughts on poppy onsies and the like?

Poppy Shop Poppy Onesie
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Old Nov 7th 2017, 8:43 am   #25
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Miss Anne Thrope
And I appreciate and respect wholly your stance on the subject, the Great Wars were fought to defend freedoms that we took for granted, and one of these was the freedom of speech and the expression of it!

Your eloquence on the subject is to be admired as well, as you so rightly pointed out it can easily develop into pettiness and name calling!

I will be wearing my poppy with pride, and remembering in the 2 minutes of silence comrades that I have known and are sadly no longer here, and I might utter a little prayer for a fenian from these pages!!
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Old Nov 7th 2017, 8:46 am   #26
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Default Re: Remembrance Poppies

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What are your thoughts on poppy onsies and the like?

Poppy Shop Poppy Onesie
Now you send it after I have had my blazer dry cleaned!!

If the money goes to a good cause then I am all for it, have to keep abreast of the times and all that shite!!
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Old Nov 7th 2017, 9:01 am   #27
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Default Re: Remembrance Poppies

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have to keep abreast of the times and all that shite!!
Sadly, the times seems to have forgotten the very essence of respect, which IMO should be kept solemn and reflective.

https://twitter.com/giantpoppywatch
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Old Nov 7th 2017, 9:04 am   #28
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Miss Anne Thrope
And I appreciate and respect wholly your stance on the subject, the Great Wars were fought to defend freedoms that we took for granted, and one of these was the freedom of speech and the expression of it!

Your eloquence on the subject is to be admired as well, as you so rightly pointed out it can easily develop into pettiness and name calling!

I will be wearing my poppy with pride, and remembering in the 2 minutes of silence comrades that I have known and are sadly no longer here, and I might utter a little prayer for a fenian from these pages!!
And, just to be completely contrarian, I am always glad to see people wearing poppies (unless it's some kind of stupid tribal badge) as I support the original underlying purpose.

Now, can we please get back to mudslinging, mischaracterisations and insults before I get completely disoriented!
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Old Nov 7th 2017, 9:07 am   #29
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Default Re: Remembrance Poppies

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And, just to be completely contrarian, I am always glad to see people wearing poppies (unless it's some kind of stupid tribal badge) as I support the original underlying purpose.

Now, can we please get back to mudslinging, mischaracterisations and insults before I get completely disoriented!
Tell me about Frankfurt. I may need to go there at the end of this month. We won a project I really don't want to have to work on and the kickoff is there.
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Old Nov 7th 2017, 9:14 am   #30
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And, just to be completely contrarian, I am always glad to see people wearing poppies (unless it's some kind of stupid tribal badge) as I support the original underlying purpose.

Now, can we please get back to mudslinging, mischaracterisations and insults before I get completely disoriented!
Of course Ms Deep Throat, normal service is resumed!!
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