A question about women.
#47
Hit 16's
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Of all the gin joints, in all the towns, in all the world, she walks into mine
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#48
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Re: A question about women.
I just read a news story about Miss Iraq taking a selfie with Miss Israel, and being forced to flee to Los Angeles because of all the death threats she got about it.
Did Miss Israel also have to flee? If not, why not?
Did Miss Israel also have to flee? If not, why not?
#49
Hit 16's
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Of all the gin joints, in all the towns, in all the world, she walks into mine
Posts: 13,112
Re: A question about women.
Salaam, shalom ... it's all about peace and love, y'know.
#50
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Re: A question about women.
Why did she flee to Los Angeles, and not to, say, Germany?
#52
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Joined: Jan 2017
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Re: A question about women.
We spent most of our time in the Middle East, in remote areas.
My wife always wore the abaya and shayla in public, which drew the appreciation of locals (Gulf locals), and saved her abuse and unwanted attention/stares from Pakistani/Bangladeshi men out on the streets.
In the cities (Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Doha etc) she never felt a need to wear an abaya or shayla.
Shayla is far more important than abaya but most Westerners think it's the other way around. Few Egyptian or Jordanian women, for instance, wear an abaya - conservative Western-style clothing is OK - but all will wear the shayla. Arabs will gladly point out to anyone who asks that the shayla is a must but the abaya optional.
In my organisation however the Westerners thought they knew better than the locals, and would advise women that it was OK to head out to rural areas with abaya but not shayla, which got them branded as prostitutes and some awful comments and gestures from men.
The locals also hate it when Western men wear dishdashas and felt it (at best) very weird and (at worst) insulting. That is their national dress and we are not of that land. Again, well-meaning but stupid Westerners would sometimes try that thinking they would blend in better, and would ignore freely given advice from locals not to do it.
It's their country, we do what they advise.
My wife always wore the abaya and shayla in public, which drew the appreciation of locals (Gulf locals), and saved her abuse and unwanted attention/stares from Pakistani/Bangladeshi men out on the streets.
In the cities (Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Doha etc) she never felt a need to wear an abaya or shayla.
Shayla is far more important than abaya but most Westerners think it's the other way around. Few Egyptian or Jordanian women, for instance, wear an abaya - conservative Western-style clothing is OK - but all will wear the shayla. Arabs will gladly point out to anyone who asks that the shayla is a must but the abaya optional.
In my organisation however the Westerners thought they knew better than the locals, and would advise women that it was OK to head out to rural areas with abaya but not shayla, which got them branded as prostitutes and some awful comments and gestures from men.
The locals also hate it when Western men wear dishdashas and felt it (at best) very weird and (at worst) insulting. That is their national dress and we are not of that land. Again, well-meaning but stupid Westerners would sometimes try that thinking they would blend in better, and would ignore freely given advice from locals not to do it.
It's their country, we do what they advise.
#53
Account Closed
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 0
Re: A question about women.
We spent most of our time in the Middle East, in remote areas.
My wife always wore the abaya and shayla in public, which drew the appreciation of locals (Gulf locals), and saved her abuse and unwanted attention/stares from Pakistani/Bangladeshi men out on the streets.
In the cities (Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Doha etc) she never felt a need to wear an abaya or shayla.
Shayla is far more important than abaya but most Westerners think it's the other way around. Few Egyptian or Jordanian women, for instance, wear an abaya - conservative Western-style clothing is OK - but all will wear the shayla. Arabs will gladly point out to anyone who asks that the shayla is a must but the abaya optional.
In my organisation however the Westerners thought they knew better than the locals, and would advise women that it was OK to head out to rural areas with abaya but not shayla, which got them branded as prostitutes and some awful comments and gestures from men.
The locals also hate it when Western men wear dishdashas and felt it (at best) very weird and (at worst) insulting. That is their national dress and we are not of that land. Again, well-meaning but stupid Westerners would sometimes try that thinking they would blend in better, and would ignore freely given advice from locals not to do it.
It's their country, we do what they advise.
My wife always wore the abaya and shayla in public, which drew the appreciation of locals (Gulf locals), and saved her abuse and unwanted attention/stares from Pakistani/Bangladeshi men out on the streets.
In the cities (Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Doha etc) she never felt a need to wear an abaya or shayla.
Shayla is far more important than abaya but most Westerners think it's the other way around. Few Egyptian or Jordanian women, for instance, wear an abaya - conservative Western-style clothing is OK - but all will wear the shayla. Arabs will gladly point out to anyone who asks that the shayla is a must but the abaya optional.
In my organisation however the Westerners thought they knew better than the locals, and would advise women that it was OK to head out to rural areas with abaya but not shayla, which got them branded as prostitutes and some awful comments and gestures from men.
The locals also hate it when Western men wear dishdashas and felt it (at best) very weird and (at worst) insulting. That is their national dress and we are not of that land. Again, well-meaning but stupid Westerners would sometimes try that thinking they would blend in better, and would ignore freely given advice from locals not to do it.
It's their country, we do what they advise.
That being said, I've highlighted some comments that made me chuckle when read in this order: red, green, orange.
Never forget that we're light years ahead of anyone who's take on life is to abuse people in the street for not adhering to the requirements of an ancient fairy tale fiction book.
#54
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Joined: Jan 2011
Location: Dubai
Posts: 3,467
Re: A question about women.
Seriously though, who would think wearing a dish dash would be a good idea...?
#55
Re: A question about women.
I was living in Riyadh around the time that the nutters were going around blowing things up and chopping Westerners heads off. Some of us regularly commuted to work in full Saudi dress as a form of camouflage !! With slightly tinted windows, you'd be amazed how effective it was.
#56
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Joined: Jan 2011
Location: Dubai
Posts: 3,467
Re: A question about women.
I was living in Riyadh around the time that the nutters were going around blowing things up and chopping Westerners heads off. Some of us regularly commuted to work in full Saudi dress as a form of camouflage !! With slightly tinted windows, you'd be amazed how effective it was.
Many years ago a mate of mine went to pick his best mate up from DXB airport. He's Brit Portugezzer and so looks a bit Arabic. He also drives a Patrol with blacked out windows. So for shits and giggles he dressed up in a dish dash, drove up and parked up at arrivals leaving his patrol running at the kurb and strolled in. His mate walked straight past him and even apologised when my mate bumped into him....... its amazing what a bit of camouflage and the right props will do.
#58
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Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 2,900
Re: A question about women.
I worked in a huge organisation and I did see them from time to time. Almost all those doing it fit the category of "mental" and were eventually asked "window or aisle."
#59
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Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 2,900
Re: A question about women.
I was living in Riyadh around the time that the nutters were going around blowing things up and chopping Westerners heads off. Some of us regularly commuted to work in full Saudi dress as a form of camouflage !! With slightly tinted windows, you'd be amazed how effective it was.
As well it is more difficult to pull off - in this dishdasha, were you also driving a Toyota Landcruiser, some other 4WD, or a luxury 2WD? A man in a dishdasha driving, say, a Toyota Yaris 2WD would raise suspicion as it doesn't "fit." That suspicion would come both from bad guys and Saudi authorities. The entire point of camoflauge is to avoid detection.
What would seriously concern me would be living in a Westerner compound since it would be obvious to any bad guys where to go, to pop a Westerner. Better to try to pretend to be an Arab Expat driving the make and models popular with them, vary your routes to and from work (or have a trusted local recommend a driver to you, who can take you through the appropriate back roads) and trying to find off-the-grid compounds would be the way to go. Driving through way nastier places, I have never, ever worn a disguise.
The most dangerous road in any conflict zone is the road to and from the airport, since there is usually only one way in (or out) and any bad guy can just set up camp and wait for a target to drive by, which is what would concern me about the compounds. Plus they wouldn't likely spare Saudis since a Saudi coming to/from one would be seen to be aligned to the infidels.
#60
Re: A question about women.
I am not saying this to take a swipe at you - but this sounds like major overkill for the context of Riyadh at that juncture. I work extensively in conflict zones and Riyadh was never, ever close to something like Baghdad or Kandahar and even at the height of the problems there you could walk around with confidence unless you were in a "problem neighbourhood" which very few Westerners ever had a reason to.
As well it is more difficult to pull off - in this dishdasha, were you also driving a Toyota Landcruiser, some other 4WD, or a luxury 2WD? A man in a dishdasha driving, say, a Toyota Yaris 2WD would raise suspicion as it doesn't "fit." That suspicion would come both from bad guys and Saudi authorities. The entire point of camoflauge is to avoid detection.
What would seriously concern me would be living in a Westerner compound since it would be obvious to any bad guys where to go, to pop a Westerner. Better to try to pretend to be an Arab Expat driving the make and models popular with them, vary your routes to and from work (or have a trusted local recommend a driver to you, who can take you through the appropriate back roads) and trying to find off-the-grid compounds would be the way to go. Driving through way nastier places, I have never, ever worn a disguise.
The most dangerous road in any conflict zone is the road to and from the airport, since there is usually only one way in (or out) and any bad guy can just set up camp and wait for a target to drive by, which is what would concern me about the compounds. Plus they wouldn't likely spare Saudis since a Saudi coming to/from one would be seen to be aligned to the infidels.
As well it is more difficult to pull off - in this dishdasha, were you also driving a Toyota Landcruiser, some other 4WD, or a luxury 2WD? A man in a dishdasha driving, say, a Toyota Yaris 2WD would raise suspicion as it doesn't "fit." That suspicion would come both from bad guys and Saudi authorities. The entire point of camoflauge is to avoid detection.
What would seriously concern me would be living in a Westerner compound since it would be obvious to any bad guys where to go, to pop a Westerner. Better to try to pretend to be an Arab Expat driving the make and models popular with them, vary your routes to and from work (or have a trusted local recommend a driver to you, who can take you through the appropriate back roads) and trying to find off-the-grid compounds would be the way to go. Driving through way nastier places, I have never, ever worn a disguise.
The most dangerous road in any conflict zone is the road to and from the airport, since there is usually only one way in (or out) and any bad guy can just set up camp and wait for a target to drive by, which is what would concern me about the compounds. Plus they wouldn't likely spare Saudis since a Saudi coming to/from one would be seen to be aligned to the infidels.
You offer some good advice above.
When we had a direct threat against me and another staff member, we were driven out to Bahrain as the security company didn't want us walking through the airport.