Nuclear Madness
Sep 21st 2015, 8:11 am
#76
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Re: Nuclear Madness
I knew you would be on this today 
Actually government guarantees are pretty standard on these kind of private sector projects. It happens all over the world - including in the UK. I was actually surprised it is only 2bn... seems far too low to me.
The underground PPPs were the first project pretty much anywhere in the world where the debt was not fully guaranteed by the government... and even then it was only 5% uncovered.
Actually government guarantees are pretty standard on these kind of private sector projects. It happens all over the world - including in the UK. I was actually surprised it is only 2bn... seems far too low to me.
The underground PPPs were the first project pretty much anywhere in the world where the debt was not fully guaranteed by the government... and even then it was only 5% uncovered.
Sep 21st 2015, 8:33 am
#77
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Re: Nuclear Madness
To be fair, PFI and PPP has delivered some amazing projects not forgetting that it has also kept me honestly employed for years. Is it always the cheapest choice for the government? hell no, it's not the cheapest but nor should it claim to be - sometimes is it, many times it is not - the issue is that it is badly presented as "value for money" which people also wrongly interpret as cheapest.
As for the nuclear power - something like this should be very tightly regulated and managed. Giving it to the chicks is a disastrous decision that almost combines the worst of both government procurement and PPP.
Sep 21st 2015, 9:00 am
#78
**** it we'll do it live
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Re: Nuclear Madness
I remember sitting in the DOT's office and advising on the trains. I said - don't do it this way... "we have to keep it off balance sheet and we do not care about the cost."
To be fair, PFI and PPP has delivered some amazing projects not forgetting that it has also kept me honestly employed for years. Is it always the cheapest choice for the government? hell no, it's not the cheapest but nor should it claim to be - sometimes is it, many times it is not - the issue is that it is badly presented as "value for money" which people also wrongly interpret as cheapest.
As for the nuclear power - something like this should be very tightly regulated and managed. Giving it to the chicks is a disastrous decision that almost combines the worst of both government procurement and PPP.
To be fair, PFI and PPP has delivered some amazing projects not forgetting that it has also kept me honestly employed for years. Is it always the cheapest choice for the government? hell no, it's not the cheapest but nor should it claim to be - sometimes is it, many times it is not - the issue is that it is badly presented as "value for money" which people also wrongly interpret as cheapest.
As for the nuclear power - something like this should be very tightly regulated and managed. Giving it to the chicks is a disastrous decision that almost combines the worst of both government procurement and PPP.
Sep 21st 2015, 9:08 am
#79
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Sep 21st 2015, 9:12 am
#80
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Re: Nuclear Madness
I remember sitting in the DOT's office and advising on the trains. I said - don't do it this way... "we have to keep it off balance sheet and we do not care about the cost."
To be fair, PFI and PPP has delivered some amazing projects not forgetting that it has also kept me honestly employed for years. Is it always the cheapest choice for the government? hell no, it's not the cheapest but nor should it claim to be - sometimes is it, many times it is not - the issue is that it is badly presented as "value for money" which people also wrongly interpret as cheapest.
As for the nuclear power - something like this should be very tightly regulated and managed. Giving it to the chicks is a disastrous decision that almost combines the worst of both government procurement and PPP.
To be fair, PFI and PPP has delivered some amazing projects not forgetting that it has also kept me honestly employed for years. Is it always the cheapest choice for the government? hell no, it's not the cheapest but nor should it claim to be - sometimes is it, many times it is not - the issue is that it is badly presented as "value for money" which people also wrongly interpret as cheapest.
As for the nuclear power - something like this should be very tightly regulated and managed. Giving it to the chicks is a disastrous decision that almost combines the worst of both government procurement and PPP.
PFI / PPP are a model needed sometimes to actually just get shit done. They weren't the quickest at times and involved a lot of civil servant do-gooders in the SPVs but they definitely serve a purpose.
Sep 21st 2015, 10:18 am
#81
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Re: Nuclear Madness
I knew you would be on this today
Actually government guarantees are pretty standard on these kind of private sector projects. It happens all over the world - including in the UK. I was actually surprised it is only 2bn... seems far too low to me.
The underground PPPs were the first project pretty much anywhere in the world where the debt was not fully guaranteed by the government... and even then it was only 5% uncovered.
Actually government guarantees are pretty standard on these kind of private sector projects. It happens all over the world - including in the UK. I was actually surprised it is only 2bn... seems far too low to me.
The underground PPPs were the first project pretty much anywhere in the world where the debt was not fully guaranteed by the government... and even then it was only 5% uncovered.
But as you say, allowing the Chinese to do anything for this project other than print some labels is blind ****ing stupidity, negligence and dereliction of duty. Their corruption is pandemic and evident. Their lack of quality and safety control is frightening (both their attitude to it and their of application of it). Their human rights record is appalling. Their attitude to the supply chain is far from what the Government mandated via the Latham Report.
Giving a significant portion of control of UK's electricity generation capability to any foreign power is beyond comprehension, but to allow that control go to the Chinese is just madness.
How do we stop it?
Sep 21st 2015, 10:27 am
#82
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Re: Nuclear Madness
I'm not against PPP, nor government involvement or support in general on important infrastructure projects. (Although for some projects / industries it should be 100% control.)
But as you say, allowing the Chinese to do anything for this project other than print some labels is blind ****ing stupidity, negligence and dereliction of duty. Their corruption is pandemic and evident. Their lack of quality and safety control is frightening (both their attitude to it and their of application of it). Their human rights record is appalling. Their attitude to the supply chain is far from what the Government mandated via the Latham Report.
Giving a significant portion of control of UK's electricity generation capability to any foreign power is beyond comprehension, but to allow that control go to the Chinese is just madness.
How do we stop it?
But as you say, allowing the Chinese to do anything for this project other than print some labels is blind ****ing stupidity, negligence and dereliction of duty. Their corruption is pandemic and evident. Their lack of quality and safety control is frightening (both their attitude to it and their of application of it). Their human rights record is appalling. Their attitude to the supply chain is far from what the Government mandated via the Latham Report.
Giving a significant portion of control of UK's electricity generation capability to any foreign power is beyond comprehension, but to allow that control go to the Chinese is just madness.
How do we stop it?
Sep 21st 2015, 10:37 am
#83
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Re: Nuclear Madness
And there are other options. The price alone allows that. £26bn for 3,200MW (and no way will that be the final cost, and I know that doesn't include the full life-cycle cost including de-commissioning and forever waste storage), equals £8m / MW; coal-fired costs about £1m / MW. By building a coal-fired plant we would save over £20bn. Fuel costs would probably be higher, but I don't believe full life-cycle would be. All the savings could be pumped into carbon capture. And the construction period would be less than half. That's just one option.
Sep 21st 2015, 11:26 am
#84
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Re: Nuclear Madness
I must say I was surprised at the tariff. 8 pence/ kwh. This, I assume excludes decommissioning provisions.
By contrast, Jordan is receiving bids for its solar program at around 7 CENTS/ kwh. i.e. around 50% less than we are getting on the nuclear.
In Iraq they pay around 3 cents/kwh -- although they do supply the gas for free. Add on market cost of gas and it would be around 6 cents.
By contrast, Jordan is receiving bids for its solar program at around 7 CENTS/ kwh. i.e. around 50% less than we are getting on the nuclear.
In Iraq they pay around 3 cents/kwh -- although they do supply the gas for free. Add on market cost of gas and it would be around 6 cents.
Sep 21st 2015, 11:45 am
#85
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Re: Nuclear Madness
I must say I was surprised at the tariff. 8 pence/ kwh. This, I assume excludes decommissioning provisions.
By contrast, Jordan is receiving bids for its solar program at around 7 CENTS/ kwh. i.e. around 50% less than we are getting on the nuclear.
In Iraq they pay around 3 cents/kwh -- although they do supply the gas for free. Add on market cost of gas and it would be around 6 cents.
By contrast, Jordan is receiving bids for its solar program at around 7 CENTS/ kwh. i.e. around 50% less than we are getting on the nuclear.
In Iraq they pay around 3 cents/kwh -- although they do supply the gas for free. Add on market cost of gas and it would be around 6 cents.
Sep 21st 2015, 11:50 am
#86
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Re: Nuclear Madness
Sellafield clean-up costs rise to £53bn, says NAO - BBC News
Sellafield clean-up costs rise to £53bn, says NAO - BBC News
Mar 4, 2015 - The cost of decommissioning and cleaning up the Sellafield nuclear site in Cumbria has increased by £5bn to £53bn, says the National Audit Office. Margaret Hodge MP, chair of the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) which commissioned the report, said the cost hike was "astonishing."
Sellafield clean-up costs rise to £53bn, says NAO - BBC News
Mar 4, 2015 - The cost of decommissioning and cleaning up the Sellafield nuclear site in Cumbria has increased by £5bn to £53bn, says the National Audit Office. Margaret Hodge MP, chair of the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) which commissioned the report, said the cost hike was "astonishing."
Sep 21st 2015, 11:59 am
#87
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Re: Nuclear Madness
Millhouse's figures are the correct base to work on (£/kwh) rather than mine which are just based on capital costs, but they're still relevance. And as Scamp is reiterating, the decommissioning costs of nuclear are massive.
Sep 21st 2015, 12:17 pm
#88
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Re: Nuclear Madness
The main points being that (a) the proposed tariff is higher than can be obtained on renewables these days (renewables used to be 20c/kwh etc) but its dropped massively in the last few years, and (b) the proposed tariff is highly unlikely to fully capture the decommisioning costs. At the end of the power purchase agreement if there isn't enough money to clean it up I doubt the sponsors will be topping up the reserves... it'll be your children's children.
Sep 21st 2015, 12:26 pm
#89
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Re: Nuclear Madness
So how do we stop it?
"It" being nuclear in the first case, and letting the Chinese and the French build and own it in the second case.
Petition? Only if 10m+ sign up, still then it's not guaranteed.
Vote Labour? Assuming Corbyn's anti-nuclear, I haven't checked, but I do like his idea of re-nationalising the railways (for another thread, perhaps).
Massive civil disobedience? As with the petition, would require huge numbers, and most of the populace don't understand or don't care (I think).
Conserve energy? Now that's a novel thought...
"It" being nuclear in the first case, and letting the Chinese and the French build and own it in the second case.
Petition? Only if 10m+ sign up, still then it's not guaranteed.
Vote Labour? Assuming Corbyn's anti-nuclear, I haven't checked, but I do like his idea of re-nationalising the railways (for another thread, perhaps).
Massive civil disobedience? As with the petition, would require huge numbers, and most of the populace don't understand or don't care (I think).
Conserve energy? Now that's a novel thought...
Sep 21st 2015, 12:51 pm
#90
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Posts: 15,887
Re: Nuclear Madness
So how do we stop it?
"It" being nuclear in the first case, and letting the Chinese and the French build and own it in the second case.
Petition? Only if 10m+ sign up, still then it's not guaranteed.
Vote Labour? Assuming Corbyn's anti-nuclear, I haven't checked, but I do like his idea of re-nationalising the railways (for another thread, perhaps).
Massive civil disobedience? As with the petition, would require huge numbers, and most of the populace don't understand or don't care (I think).
Conserve energy? Now that's a novel thought...
"It" being nuclear in the first case, and letting the Chinese and the French build and own it in the second case.
Petition? Only if 10m+ sign up, still then it's not guaranteed.
Vote Labour? Assuming Corbyn's anti-nuclear, I haven't checked, but I do like his idea of re-nationalising the railways (for another thread, perhaps).
Massive civil disobedience? As with the petition, would require huge numbers, and most of the populace don't understand or don't care (I think).
Conserve energy? Now that's a novel thought...