1.26 and falling

Old Jan 20th 2017, 10:27 am
  #181  
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Default Re: 1.26 and falling

Originally Posted by norsk
Just to add my thoughts from this cold and rainy island on the western edge of EU.

There is a growing feeling amongst people I have spoken to that May has no idea how to handle the challenge she is up against. Her feeble attempts at calming the situation and updating people have shown she is completely out of control and to top it off it has left the country in a situation where we are odds on to have no (acceptable) deal with EU.

49.8% of the population seem to be making preparations to collectively stand up and say "We told you so.." but in the meantime they are biting down and getting on with life. Nobody seems too concerned about the prospect of leaving the EU as they trust the politicians to come up with the goods. The exception is the brexiters who are still terrified that the whole referendum was a hoax and that the politicians (who they don't trust) will somehow make up an excuse and back away from the whole mess.
May said within the last 12 months statements such as:-

So my judgement, as Home Secretary, is that remaining a member of the European Union means we will be more secure from crime and terrorism.

So I want to return to the principles I set out to help us judge whether Britain should join or remain a member of international institutions. Remaining inside the European Union does make us more secure, it does make us more prosperous and it does make us more influential beyond our shores.

The headline facts of Britain’s trade with Europe are clear. The EU is a single market of more than 500 million people, representing an economy of almost £11 trillion and a quarter of the world’s GDP. 44% of our goods and services exports go to the EU, compared to 5% to India and China. We have a trade surplus in services with the rest of the EU of £17 billion. And the trading relationship is more inter-related than even these figures suggest. Our exporters rely on inputs from EU companies more than firms from anywhere else: 9% of the ‘value added’ of UK exports comes from inputs from within the EU, compared to 2.7% from the United States and 1.3% from China.

So the single market accounts for a huge volume of our trade


So 9 months after these statements May is pushing all out for a hard Brexit?

Source - https://www.gov.uk/government/speech...e-in-the-world

Err - right ok... clearly she must have a great plan in mind....
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Old Jan 20th 2017, 12:09 pm
  #182  
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Default Re: 1.26 and falling

A couple posters whose remain views were very well known and established continuing to express doubts about Brexit? 'People I talk to all say....' 'everyone knows that....' blah blah blah. Bit of an echo chamber, isn't it?

I'm sure the other side is just as culpable

As it is, die has been cast, life will go on and I'm perhaps a wee bit more optimistic than you lot.
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Old Jan 20th 2017, 2:55 pm
  #183  
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Default Re: 1.26 and falling

Originally Posted by Autonomy
May said within the last 12 months statements such as:-

So my judgement, as Home Secretary, is that remaining a member of the European Union means we will be more secure from crime and terrorism.

So I want to return to the principles I set out to help us judge whether Britain should join or remain a member of international institutions. Remaining inside the European Union does make us more secure, it does make us more prosperous and it does make us more influential beyond our shores.

The headline facts of Britain’s trade with Europe are clear. The EU is a single market of more than 500 million people, representing an economy of almost £11 trillion and a quarter of the world’s GDP. 44% of our goods and services exports go to the EU, compared to 5% to India and China. We have a trade surplus in services with the rest of the EU of £17 billion. And the trading relationship is more inter-related than even these figures suggest. Our exporters rely on inputs from EU companies more than firms from anywhere else: 9% of the ‘value added’ of UK exports comes from inputs from within the EU, compared to 2.7% from the United States and 1.3% from China.

So the single market accounts for a huge volume of our trade


So 9 months after these statements May is pushing all out for a hard Brexit?

Source - https://www.gov.uk/government/speech...e-in-the-world

Err - right ok... clearly she must have a great plan in mind....
I think that's a bit unfair.

When she made those statements, it would be fair to assume that those were her views, and they were well expressed. What has changed since she expressed them is that the will of the people has been voiced, and she has been charged with implementing that will. Although I disagree with the principle of Brexit, it seems pretty obvious that we can't have a half-way house, and the referendum was binary. Since she is now charged with implementing that will, she is probably going against her personal feelings, and doing her job. Although part of the remit of a politician is to express one's honest views, it is also the job of the PM, in the current circumstances, to implement the result of the referendum. Out, regrettably, means out.
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Old Jan 20th 2017, 6:41 pm
  #184  
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Default Re: 1.26 and falling

Originally Posted by Bahtatboy
I think that's a bit unfair.

When she made those statements, it would be fair to assume that those were her views, and they were well expressed. What has changed since she expressed them is that the will of the people has been voiced, and she has been charged with implementing that will. Although I disagree with the principle of Brexit, it seems pretty obvious that we can't have a half-way house, and the referendum was binary. Since she is now charged with implementing that will, she is probably going against her personal feelings, and doing her job. Although part of the remit of a politician is to express one's honest views, it is also the job of the PM, in the current circumstances, to implement the result of the referendum. Out, regrettably, means out.
That's a great post.
She is in a position that has to represent the people and not herself or her party.
I think it's pretty obvious to all concerned now there is no soft Brexit.
Allowing freedom of movement just to stay in the single market is tantamount to staying in the EU
To say we will not be able to trade with those 27 countries is scaremongering bollocks.
We will trade and probably on better terms.
If you look at places like Amsterdam now where there are 120,000 Moroccan males aged between 21 and 30 who through no fault of their own find themselves without legitimate opportunity to work and have resorted to taking over the underbelly of that city and all goes along with that.
Paris is heading down the same route. You won't see that in the press but ask those on the ground there.

Merkel et al should be banished from any sort of governmental role for what was a purposeful dilution of the native Europeans.

Accept refugees and genuine asylum seekers of course and welcome genuine migrant workers. But when 85% of the incoming migrants that have been allowed in without question are 21-30 single males then it's obviously a blatant attempt to diversify Europe.

The UK has chosen to break away from that and the future will show that was the correct decision. I dread to imagine Europe in 5 years time.
Theresa May is only doing what she is employed to do, that's democracy and she is abiding by it.

....And before you on the left start. I'm the least racist person I have ever met. Over 10 years married to my wife who originated from Africa. Our kids spend time both here and there and the only colouristic statement that i have ever heard them utter is that my hair is going grey!

Last edited by lightandbitter2; Jan 20th 2017 at 6:45 pm.
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Old Jan 21st 2017, 8:48 am
  #185  
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Default Re: 1.26 and falling

I agree with you.

Circumstances have changed as a consequence of the referendum. But it's clear that Theresa May, instead of dwelling on regrets, what-ifs or focussing solely on trying to minimise the impacts of Brexit, is also seeing it as an opportunity to bring about a new way of doing things in Britain. While she may have supported Remain before the referendum and gave credible reasons for doing so, she has clearly also endeavoured to understand the circumstances that brought it about, so it's understandable why she supported remain a year ago and is now committed to leaving the Single Market.

Her speech at Davos last week was quite good and gives an indication as to her thoughts and personal philosophy as well.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/...ampaign=buffer

I don't want to draw too many parallels between Brexit and Donald Trump's election but what they both had in common is that they were manifestations of the unhappiness and insecurity of our times. And it's not just those two votes either, Obama's election eight years ago was also seen as a testament of people's desires for change, for a new way of doing things. Let us not forget the London riots a few years back or the entire anti-1%er movement. When you think about it, it's remarkable that in the last ten years we've seen profound showings of unhappiness by both the 'left' and the 'right'. There's justification to May's focus on the people 'just managing to get by' for, whatever the reasons are, and they are many, the world of the last 20 years has not been truly beneficial for them and they feel left behind in a society that seems increasingly stacked against them. The parameters introduced by the 'globalisation' era of the EU and the world in the last few decades have not materially benefitted large segments of the population while heavily enriching a minority, and the rules of this world also resulted in many feeling left behind politically and socially. It's interesting to note that the rise of the EU also neatly paralleled the growth in the sentiment that there was little to differentiate the main political parties and that democracy was increasingly a sham, which reflected itself in the decline in political engagement as reflected in voting habits and political allegiance. It's astonishing at how many of the 'establishment' or the global minded prosperous classes are ignorant or even indifferent to this growing detachment, and it's reminiscent of the indifference of the Victorian establishment towards large sectors of their society.

Some of you will doubtlessly start screaming about the economic risks of withdrawing from the common market and how it may disproportionate affect the same people who voted for Brexit. There may be some truth to it, but let us also remember that there is more to life and society than money and the economy.

I do find it amusing that a generation ago it was the left banging on the table and shouting about society and community and social solidarity and accusing the Tories and similar parties for only caring about money. Nowadays it seems that the tables have flipped



Originally Posted by Bahtatboy
I think that's a bit unfair.

When she made those statements, it would be fair to assume that those were her views, and they were well expressed. What has changed since she expressed them is that the will of the people has been voiced, and she has been charged with implementing that will. Although I disagree with the principle of Brexit, it seems pretty obvious that we can't have a half-way house, and the referendum was binary. Since she is now charged with implementing that will, she is probably going against her personal feelings, and doing her job. Although part of the remit of a politician is to express one's honest views, it is also the job of the PM, in the current circumstances, to implement the result of the referendum. Out, regrettably, means out.
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Old Jan 21st 2017, 10:44 am
  #186  
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Default Re: 1.26 and falling

Originally Posted by lightandbitter2
....And before you on the left start. I'm the least racist person I have ever met. Over 10 years married to my wife who originated from Africa. Our kids spend time both here and there and the only colouristic statement that i have ever heard them utter is that my hair is going grey!
I'm not saying you are racist, but that's about a strong an argument as the bloke who has a wife and kids to prove to society that he isn't homosexual.....
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Old Jan 21st 2017, 10:49 am
  #187  
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Default Re: 1.26 and falling

Originally Posted by DXBtoDOH
A couple posters whose remain views were very well known and established continuing to express doubts about Brexit? 'People I talk to all say....' 'everyone knows that....' blah blah blah. Bit of an echo chamber, isn't it?

I'm sure the other side is just as culpable

As it is, die has been cast, life will go on and I'm perhaps a wee bit more optimistic than you lot.
As I have stated many times before the vote was done, the results are accepted and we move on. However one potentially stupid decision doesn't mean that you should continue being stupid (and/or reckless) forever does it?

May did not come across as particularly intelligent nor trustworthy as Home Secretary and since taking the reins in No 10 that trend is continuing.

Accusing people of being broken records doesn't change the fact that they are telling you facts of life....
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Old Jan 21st 2017, 2:50 pm
  #188  
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Default Re: 1.26 and falling

Originally Posted by norsk
I'm not saying you are racist, but that's about a strong an argument as the bloke who has a wife and kids to prove to society that he isn't homosexual.....
Exactly. You can like Africans and still hate Indians/Eastern European.
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Old Jan 21st 2017, 3:16 pm
  #189  
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Default Re: 1.26 and falling

Early days, mate, early days of course.

I'm a keen amateur historian and it's my instinct that we're entering an era where the tide has suddenly changed. The assumptions of even just a few years ago are becoming obsolete and in a few years' time will no longer be valid. It may seem ludicrous, but it is human nature to disbelieve the seemingly impossible, and when it happens, forget that you ever disbelieved it and even come to find the old way of thinking funny and peculiar. 1945 versus 1939, 1985 versus 1980, history is littered with multiple examples. And it's also my instinct that when we are old and grey and lusting after busty youngsters from our wheelchairs, May will be reckoned as one of the greatest British PMs, right up there with Thatcher and Attlee and Churchill, all for different reasons, of course.

I don't intend to flatter madame May more than she deserves and she will certainly make mistakes along the way. Remember, while the tide of history is unstoppable it is still prone to disruptions that bashes it into a different direction. What I see in May, regardless of her past faults, is that she recognises this and is attempting to steer the course so Britain can make the transition as smoothly as possible. We will certainly disagree in that I believe she has the capacity and will to handle this. As it is, we will need to rely on that ever so useful adage, time will tell.


Originally Posted by norsk
As I have stated many times before the vote was done, the results are accepted and we move on. However one potentially stupid decision doesn't mean that you should continue being stupid (and/or reckless) forever does it?

May did not come across as particularly intelligent nor trustworthy as Home Secretary and since taking the reins in No 10 that trend is continuing.

Accusing people of being broken records doesn't change the fact that they are telling you facts of life....
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Old Jan 22nd 2017, 4:45 am
  #190  
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Default Re: 1.26 and falling

Originally Posted by Bahtatboy
I think that's a bit unfair.

When she made those statements, it would be fair to assume that those were her views, and they were well expressed. What has changed since she expressed them is that the will of the people has been voiced, and she has been charged with implementing that will. Although I disagree with the principle of Brexit, it seems pretty obvious that we can't have a half-way house, and the referendum was binary. Since she is now charged with implementing that will, she is probably going against her personal feelings, and doing her job. Although part of the remit of a politician is to express one's honest views, it is also the job of the PM, in the current circumstances, to implement the result of the referendum. Out, regrettably, means out.
Great post, also links back well to what Norsk was saying (or how I read it) that in reality, people will just get on with this. The whole place will have to knuckle down, crack on and graft if the change isn't positive immediately or longer term. Kind of what we Brits do, right?


Originally Posted by Autonomy
Got to love the internet, wake up on an enjoyable Friday, have some lunch, read the newspapers, look at an internet forum and find you're being called smug and judgemental.

At least you boys are thinking of me. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.
Everyone has their place, nice that you've found yours.
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